“The best way for kids to learn about money is to put it in their hands and allow them to practice with it.”
-Kelsa Dickey
During this episode of The Art of Allowance Podcast, I chat with Kelsa Dickey. Kelsa is the founder of Fiscal Fitness Phoenix, an Arizona-based company offering financial coaching services. She wears numerous hats besides financial coach, however, including wife, mother, movie and wine lover, goal achiever and podcast co-host.
Interested in learning how to approach relatives who may be spoiling your children? Then this episode (especially the section beginning at 35:06) is for you!
SHOW NOTES (Find what’s most interesting to you)
- How Kelsa became a financial coach in middle school [2:02]
- Incorporating the money conversation into life with toddlers [4:34]
- Starting the value-based money conversation early [8:04]
- Respecting and safeguarding money [10:29]
- Different money personalities [11:38]
- Kelsa’s uncertainty about how to address money with her children when they’re older: a lesson on flexibility [12:26]
- Thoughts on allowance, value-based decision making and money skills [13:47]
- Allowance obstacles [17:30]
- The importance of engaging in money conversations with your partner in front of your kids [20:31]
- The negative connotation of the word “budget” [21:38]
- The positive money influence of Kelsa’s “tough love” grandfather [22:48]
- The importance of the word “no” [25:35]
- How Kelsa realized that “Personal finance is personal.” [26:42]
- How Kelsa’s quarter-life crisis led to her financial coaching career [27:51]
- Allowance structure and budgeting [31:02]
- What the term “money-empowered” means to Kelsa [33:58]
- Books and reading as investments [34:30]
- Grandparent privilege: a case study [35:06]
- Marshall Rosenberg’s concept of Nonviolent Communication [40:32]
- A brief summary of The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman [43:10]
- Being intentional with your money [44:27]
- Chip and Dan Heath’s The Power of Moments and creating memories [45:04]
- Finding Kelsa on social media (Fiscal Fitness Phoenix) and via her podcast (“The Saver and the Spender”) [46:01]
Click here for the full transcript.
Looking for a strategy to impart your family values through an allowance system? Then I think you’d enjoy my discussion with Tom Henske, a New York City Certified Financial Planner and Financial Advisor who offers great advice about how to use matching to teach children the money values you want them to learn. This section begins at 31:00.
Want to hear more about money shame? Then you should listen to my episode featuring mom Melissa Disharoon. (Skip to 45:08 for this section.)
The Art of Allowance podcast is available on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or Radio Public.
Please subscribe to our show to allow me to have additional conversations with parents and discover new ideas to help us all raise money-smart, money-empowered kids. You can find out more about our movement at themoneymammals.com/aoa as well as download a sample or get a copy of my new book, The Art of Allowance.
You might also want to check out The Money Mammals, our program to get your children excited about money smarts when they’re young. Until next time, I wish you and your family well as you journey forth. Thanks for listening.
Full Transcript
This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 17, featuring host John Lanza and guest Kelsa Dickey.
00:00:00,280 [John Lanza]
Hello, hello. This is your host, John Lanza, and welcome to Episode 17 of The Art of Allowance Podcast.
00:00:08,640 [Kelsa Dickey]
Instead of saying like, “Yeah, here’s the money for it,” you’re going to give them an allowance. The allowance becomes a line item on the budget, and the allowance covers the things you are already paying for oftentimes. So it’s not an additional line item, we’re simply moving money, or shifting it around a little bit, and we’re putting it in their hands so that they can decide how they spend it.
00:00:29,560 [John Lanza]
[intro music plays] This was a fun episode to record. Financial coach Kelsa Dickey is my guest, and we discuss so much that I think will be valuable for you and your kids. The importance of simple conversations, even with very young kids. The power of intentionality. How to think of a budget as something liberating and not restricting. And even dealing with a family member who may be spoiling your kids. Is your interest piqued? I hope so. So, without further ado, here’s another interesting conversation that I hope will help you and your family.
00:01:12,240 [John Lanza]
[instrumental music plays] So today, I am talking with Kelsa Dickey. She is the owner and CEO of Fiscal Fitness Phoenix. She is a wife, mama, financial coach, movie and wine lover, goal achiever, and podcast co-host. In fact, I met Kelsa when she interviewed me on her own podcast, The Saver and the Spender. She is the saver, and I’d like to welcome Kelsa Dickey.
00:01:41,820 [Kelsa Dickey]
Thank you. Hi everybody, thanks for having me, John.
00:01:44,720 [John Lanza]
Well, I’m glad to have you on. We get to have the perspective … I think you’re the first money coach on The Art of Allowance Podcast, so this is exciting, and I think you’re gonna bring a unique perspective to it. And I think this will be a l- very interesting for, for me to learn a little bit more about, kind of, thinking about money. So, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into financial coaching and started your company.
00:02:09,340 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, so I am actually going to be celebrating my 11th year anniversary as a financial coach this month, and I joke that I have been a financial coach since middle school. I have loved budgeting for a very long time. Um, unfortunately, it came from witnessing my mom file bankruptcy in middle school. And, you know, of course, as a, as a middle schooler, I didn’t know what bankruptcy meant. I just knew that it had to do with money. I knew it was bad, and I knew that she tried so hard to manage things well and to make good decisions, and she simply struggled with, like, how to do that. And I learned at a really young age that money impacts our life. It has the potential to be a really beautiful tool that we can use to reach our goals, or it can make us feel really shameful and embarrassed and devastated, and really just hopeless, like how my mom felt. And, um, I decided really early that I wanted to figure out, like, how can we make it easier? How can we make it something that we enjoy? And really not because money by itself is important, but because of the impact that it has on all the other areas of our life.
00:03:13,080 [John Lanza]
Wow, that is a formative moment. Uh, I think that’s, that’s, that’s very interesting to learn, and, and it’s a, uh, not surprising, I suppose, that [laughs] you found this, um, this, this, uh, uh, profession. I- I wanted to kind of, uh, dig in first to the fact that you have two, two kids, two-year … Two, two and three-year-olds. A two-year-old and a three-year-old.
00:03:39,000 [Kelsa Dickey]
Right, right. [laughs]
00:03:39,290 [John Lanza]
Okay, I can’t seem to talk today. I don’t know what’s, [laughs] what’s going on with my mouth.
00:03:42,769 [Kelsa Dickey]
It’s tough to say them, yeah.
00:03:44,380 [John Lanza]
So, uh, the two toddlers. And
00:03:47,600 [John Lanza]
I wanted to talk about, there’s a, there’s a term that most parents are aware of. They may not know the term, it’s called emergent literacy, but they, they certainly know what it is, and it is the reason that we read to our kids from a young age, even when they’re babies. I remember Barack Obama famously said that’s what he did with Malia and Sasha when they were really young, right out of the womb. And we do this, we know this is important because it provides the building blocks for later literacy, so reading and writing. And there’s a similar term that’s called emergent financial literacy, and that is obviously, you wanna start these kind of money conversations and exposing kids to money language from a young age. And I, I thought y- you might have a unique perspective on this, obviously, from talking to people and their money language at older ages. Uh, but as a financial coach, like, tell us a little bit about how you’re incorporating the inc- the money conversations into your hectic lives with two toddlers?
00:04:45,040 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, it does feel, uh, hectic, that’s for sure. And I try to remember to do it in small doses. So, it does not have to be anything overly profound, and it doesn’t have to be an entire day of learning. And that really the subtle opportunities that we have, whether we’re at the grocery store or going through the ATM, um, any time that we’re leaving for work in the morning, those are all based around a financial choice. And so we really just try to use subtle opportunities. And, you know, I certainly don’t talk about money every morning when I’m going to work, but I do use it as an opportunity every once in a while to plant that seed at a young age. Um, I do believe that even a two-year-old and a three-year-old can fully begin to adopt some financial literacy and appreciation for money, and maybe, um, a fun perspective as far as, like, something that isn’t worth being intimidated by, or something that they can maybe play with, or something like that. So, some of the things that we do, you know, when, when we go to work, we say that we’re going to work to help people and, you know, I- we don’t complain about work as far as, like, we have to go to work to pay the bills and to cover things that you want, or, you know, that, those sort of, like, negative connotations. We talk about how we add value to people’s lives, and by doing so, we make money, and then we get to do cool things with that money. And again, we have a two-year-old and a three-year-old, so it’s gotta be super, you know, age-appropriate, but really trying to plant that positive connection with work and money. And I do feel very blessed because I get to do what I love every day, and I get to make money doing what I love every day, um, so it’s really easy for me to have that perspective, and yet I like to tell my clients, like, “Fake it till you make it.” So, your kids don’t need to understand the drama behind your work at a young age. Um, you don’t want them to grow up with that negative connotation around work. Um, we also …You know, a lot of parents will teach their children to, like, respect their toys, and you don’t step on them, and you don’t throw them across the room, and you take care of things. And we teach that same perspective with money. So, you know, if there’s money laying on the floor, like, it needs to be picked up. They have, you know, change jars in their bedrooms, and we make it fun. We’re like, “Oh my God. Saving is so much fun, isn’t it?” And we simply say that as if it’s just … We want them to adopt that philosophy and not know anything different from a young age, and so that’s what we say. Well, um, their bedrooms are both upstairs, so we’ll kind of make a fun game of, like, running up the stairs or crawling up the stairs or doing a bear crawl so that we can put money in the piggy bank. And so we try to attach it to something silly and fun, um, and just have that light air around it.
00:07:25,252 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I like this idea of keeping it as positive as possible, ’cause there’s so much that societal negativity that, that is involved in money. And I, I find myself having to catch my own language at times because, you know, we all are carrying around a little bit of money baggage, and it’s, it’s really important to be aware of the language that we’re using around your kids. And I, I love this idea of really being fun and, and almost silly and but, but, but intentional about the way you’re talking to your kids about money, because I think, you know, what you’re trying to do is open up this lifelong conversation. And I, I wanted to ask you that question because I really think, you know, wh- when I was on your podcast, we kind of connected on this idea that you have to be intentional as a parent, and you have to start this conversation really early because their awareness starts really early, and you want to be the one that’s kind of instilling your money values on your kids other than, you know, rather than someone else or some other entity doing that. Does that make sense?
00:08:25,692 [Kelsa Dickey]
It 100% does. I, I hear people say all the time how, you know, money should be taught in schools, and it’s a shame that it’s not. And in one sense, I completely agree with that, and it should also be taught at home. It’s very much a value-based conversation, so do you choose to tithe or not? Do you donate to charity? Do you give? What kinds of things do you spend your money on? Those are value-based conversations, and I believe that it’s best for those to be taught at home by the parents, even if it’s in small doses.
00:08:55,641 [John Lanza]
Well, and you can be really tactical about this too, because in terms of values … Like, for example, when you set up … And I’ll just make the assumption that people have listened to a few other episodes on, of this podcast, so they’ll know that we’ve set-
00:09:08,212 [Kelsa Dickey]
Sure
00:09:08,222 [John Lanza]
… up the three banks and, and the share and the save and the spend smart. But, you know, if it’s really important to you, for example, to tithe or to provide some kind of charitable giving, and you’re using that share jar, you know, you could match dollar-for-dollar any money they’re putting in there, right? Um-
00:09:23,152 [Kelsa Dickey]
Absolutely.
00:09:24,192 [John Lanza]
You know, and that, that’s a good way to get across your values. You could do that for the save jar. Like, we would match a quarter for every dollar, and at every t- every time we did our allowance handout, we would say, “Here’s your chance. Instead of putting the money in the spend, you could put it in the save. And if you put four of those dollars in, you get another dollar, ’cause you’re getting-“
00:09:43,622 [Kelsa Dickey]
Mm-hmm.
00:09:43,652 [John Lanza]
“… a quarter for every dollar.” And what’s nice about this is, as a parent, you can value it however makes sense for your family. So you’d, like I said, you could do a quarter for dollar, you could do 50 cents, you could do a dollar for dollar, whatever, whatever you want to do. And you could do that not only for the jars, but also, for example, like, what we did was we really wanted to encourage reading, so we would pay half the cost of any book, so basically it doubled their-
00:10:09,852 [Kelsa Dickey]
Mm-hmm
00:10:09,861 [John Lanza]
… spending power with regard to any book that they would buy. And we’d, you know, also introduce them to the library. But that’s what’s nice about setting up a system and starting this conversation early is that there are real tactical ways that you can instill your values, uh, your money values, and, and your overall values on your kids using money.
00:10:29,012 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah. We, one of the things that we feel is important is that, you know, the, the money should be sort of respected. And I don’t mean to say that you bow down to it in any way, or just like our toys should be respected and our possessions, and I feel like very subtle things. You know, we should use polite words when we talk to people, and we should have good manners and that sort of thing. We like to teach that money needs to be safeguarded. So our three-year-old has this little teeny purse, and so we’ll go to the grocery store, and we’ll put a dollar in it, and we’ll encourage her to keep it safe while we’re at the store. So make sure you know where it’s at. Don’t lose it. Hold onto it. You know, let’s see if you can get through the store with that dollar still in your purse, and if so-
00:11:05,771 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:11:05,902 [Kelsa Dickey]
… you can buy something with it, right? And, you know, it could be a quarter, and to a three-year-old, it is just such a fun game to play. Um, and she … And this is definitely what I have found is an age-appropriate thing. So our son, I’m not so sure when he’s three that he will be able to safeguard-
00:11:21,152 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:11:21,502 [Kelsa Dickey]
… money quite yet. Um, you know, I think it has a lot to do with, like, personality types of the children, but, you know, the nice thing is that for her, she has this sense of pride of, wow, like, I get to hold onto this, and this is a really cool game, and I don’t have to spend it right away.
00:11:37,292 [John Lanza]
Well, you’re touching on another very important, um, aspect to this, and i- is that your kids are gonna have different money personalities, and it’s perfectly okay to have different, to take, uh, do, do, do a kind of … Incorporate a different system with each kid to some extent, uh, whatever is going to work best for them. That’s, I mean, that’s the reason why this podcast is called The Art of Allowance is because, you know, there’s no one … There are, there are guidelines, uh, that you, that you need to follow, but, you know, every kid, every parent, every family is different, and I like the fact that you’re, you know, very quickly realizing that, well, this is working great for my daughter, not-
00:12:14,622 [Kelsa Dickey]
[laughs]
00:12:14,622 [John Lanza]
… so sure it’s gonna work for my son, ’cause that is how things are gonna work. I mean, our kids right now get different, um, allowances, uh, allowance sizes. So that’s perfectly okay. Uh, that’s part of the process.
00:12:26,432 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, and I know for me, I don’t know if it helps for other people to hear this, but, you know, I’m a financial coach, and yet I’m not really sure what I will talk to my kids about when they’re six and seven. I don’t know that step yet, but I’m simply taking it sort of one year, one day at a time, one week at a time. And I like to tell myself that if my children were faced with s- with an unknown, and they had to figure something out, and they were maybe intimidated by it, what would I hope that they would do? Like, how would they tackle that? And I hope that they would allow themselves to research, and seek to understand, and read, you know, art- uh, books, or listen to a podcast, and try to gain ideas, and not allow that … intimidation to stop them from moving forward. And so I just tell myself like, “I’ll figure it out when the time comes. There’s resources out there that will give me some really great ideas, and I’m just going to trust that what I’m doing right now is what I just can focus on right now.”
00:13:19,400 [John Lanza]
That’s funny, ’cause I was actually gonna ask you, [laughs] can you tell me a little bit about [laughs] kind of what your plans are moving forward? I actually love that idea though because, I mean, you know, you- you certainly have a grasp of, uh, the way our people’s brains work with regard to money, so that gives you, uh, an advantage. But I don’t … I think that’s something that any parent can feel comfortable with, which is that, you know, you get some kinda system in place. Right now, your system is basically having conversations, keeping it fun, keeping it light, but, you know, answering questions as they come up. So you’re opening that money conversation. At some point, you’ll probably start some type of an allowance, and that will kind of guide you because you’ll set it up and say it I’ll do … we’re gonna do this every week, or we’re gonna do it every two weeks, or we’re gonna do it every month. And I- I think the idea of being open to what is going to work for your kids is a really smart idea. I mean, when we first started allowance for our, um, older daughter, we started it at four, and it just did not take. And so we stopped it, and started it again at five, and really, it- she was ready at that point.
00:14:24,849 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah.
00:14:24,849 [John Lanza]
And that’s- that’s why I really talk about the- the five works. Now, uh, five years old is a- is a pretty good age, but-
00:14:31,719 [Kelsa Dickey]
Mm-hmm
00:14:32,000 [John Lanza]
… but we started our younger daughter at four because she had seen her older daughter getting the allowance, so she had a familiarity with it. So the flexibility comes as a parent just watching and observing, and that’s exactly what you’re doing.
00:14:46,760 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah. I do have some ideas around, you know, some things that I would love to do. You know, so I do … Michael and I plan to do an allowance structure, of course. We think that that’s very important. We think the best way for kids to learn about money is to put it in their hands and allow them to practice with it when they’re in the safety and security of your home. And so that is something we plan to introduce when it is more appropriate for them. I really believe in value-based decisions, and so I hope to use money as a way of teaching that or reinforcing that. So, you know, we want them to give. We want them to be caring. We want them to feel really great about maybe buying a gift for somebody, um, or, you know, buying a gift at Christmastime for their siblings or something like that, even if it’s just the smallest thing from the dollar store. Um, and there are some skills that I hope that we will use money as a way for them to learn those skills, like delayed gratification, intentionality, or being really intentional with what you want to do with your money and making sure that your money goes to the things that you want in life. And at first, I fully imagine that what my daughter might want is like a new board game or a new book or something like that, but the idea is that the- the skill that she’s learning can be transformed for, you know, years and years to come; as those things change, the skill is the same.
00:16:02,660 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I love that, I think, uh … And the intentionality is something we talked a lot about, and it’s- it’s really important because, you know, the fact is that you, as a parent, have to go … You have to take an active role in this process because, well, there’s two things that you talked about. Um, one you just brought up
00:16:22,579 [John Lanza]
that, you know, kids are not gonna really learn how to manage money without actual money in their hands. And it goes back to something you were talking about before, which is that, you know, in general, this is not taught in the schools. Now, that differs from state to state- from state to state, but for example, here in California, there is no mandate to teach it at all anywhere in the schools. And s- personal finance, that is. So it is up to the parents, and it’s not worth it, doesn’t really do us any good to complain about it, and w- certainly people can lobby for more- more to be done in the schools, but even if you do have a program in the schools, uh, you know, for example, I think Texas has a- a program through K through eight, and then they have something for the high schools as well. Y- it- you’re still, as a parent, going to have to provide some kind of money to your kids for them to learn at a young age before they can g- actually get some kinda job and- and, uh, and- and get their own money in that way. So that’s why this, regardless of what’s happening in the schools, we have to be active and we have to be intentional as parents in terms of teaching our kids about money.
00:17:29,659 [Kelsa Dickey]
Right. And I will say you touched on a couple of obstacles that I hear people say when it comes to why they’re not doing an allowance or why they’re not teaching their kids about money. One of them is they, uh, either fear or they think like, “Well, who am I? You know, I’ve made so many mistakes. I don’t know much about money. Like, who am I to teach my kids about money?” And another one is just the financial aspect of like, “Well, where does that money come from? Like, how do I afford to give them an allowance?” And, um, you know, I think it’s just good to talk about some of those things. I find that for adults who have had financial challenges in the past or even in recent years, um, the shame of those poor decisions can really impact their motivation or their drive to talk to their kids about money. And I talk with my clients about how the reaction to shame oftentimes is avoidance. So when we feel shame in any area of our life, the natural inclination is to stick our head in the sand, try to avoid it, pretend like it’s not there. We don’t talk about it, and that’s what happens when people feel shame around their past decisions. They shut down in talking with their kids about money because they are avoiding it altogether. They- they … I think what happens is if they talk about it with their kids, it’s actually bringing that up in themselves and they’re sort of remembering those past mistakes again, and that can be a little painful. Um, it can be like o- you know, putting salt on a rock- on a open wound sort of thing. Um, and yet I also think it’s one of the most therapeutic things that you can do is like teach somebody else to avoid the mistakes that you’ve made. Talk about them. Talk about what you’ve learned. You know, I feel like we’ve all made mistakes with money. Show me somebody who hasn’t. And, um, I feel like, you know, one of the best things that we can do is … to negate a mistake is to learn from it, right? So it’s sort of like, okay, well, yes, that happened, but you know, I’m stronger now because of it, or I’m smarter now because of it, and not using that as a reason to not talk to your kids about money.
00:19:36,468 [John Lanza]
Well, and I think what’s interesting about this process when you start talking to kids about money, you can … I- I think of this money shame as it’s actually really a feature, not a bug in your system. So, we really have to release our baggage in order to be able to, or, or confront our baggage, or confront our money shame in order to be able to raise our- our kids to be money smart. And we’re only doing ourselves a disservice by avoiding it, because otherwise, if we’re not the ones who are intentionally trying to teach our kids about money, then they’re going to learn that from either other people, or they’re gonna learn it from watching whatever it might be. And you know, most of the messages that are out there societally are about consumption.
00:20:19,918 [Kelsa Dickey]
Consumption.
00:20:19,948 [John Lanza]
And yeah, that- that can be, that can be detrimental to our kids.
00:20:24,468 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, I completely agree, and I think you and I were talking about this before, and it’s fascinating to me. It is really important to see, to allow your children to see you talking with your spouse about money, so having either budgeting meetings or conversations, decision-making conversations around money that are healthy and productive and like healthy conflict, even if that’s part of it. One of the things that we see often when I’m coaching clients is a couple will come in, and maybe one of them growing up never saw their parents talk about money ever. So, and it’s not to say their parents didn’t talk about it, but maybe they did it behind closed doors, or they kept it very private. And they weren’t, you know, in a bad financial position, and so now that that child is older and in their own relationship and married, and they find that they have to talk about money with their spouse, and they actually have to work at it, they feel like if they have to work at it, they must be doing it wrong because their parents never talked about it, right? And it’s really just because they never saw their parents talk about it. And we have to really work through that as far as, um, you know, this isn’t unhealthy that you have to talk about money. It doesn’t mean that something’s wrong, and it’s all based on the fact that they never witnessed their parents doing it. And so it’s really important to allow your children to see you having budget meetings, um, not be afraid of the word “budget”. Um, one of the things that happens all the time too is parents will say, like, “We can’t do that. It’s not in the budget.” They never or don’t often say like, “Hey, we get to take this vacation because of the budget.” And what happens is budget growing up then becomes, like, it’s only brought up when the answer is no, or-
00:22:03,608 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:22:03,838 [Kelsa Dickey]
… it’s- it’s the budget’s fault. So the budget is always a restrictive tool, right, not a liberating tool, or not something that gives us permission or allows us to actually have fun with our money. And so I also try to encourage parents to use the word “budget” in both positive and negative ways. Like, and by negative, I mean just sort of neutral, like, you know, “That’s not part of our budget because that’s not important to us.” So take the ownership of it. Don’t, like, blame it on the budget.
00:22:29,868 [John Lanza]
That’s, that is really good advice. I like that idea of- of- of the, uh, budget being a liberating tool. That makes a lot of sense. That’s terrific. Now, going back to, uh, the- the bank, your mom’s bankruptcy being a, um, a big formative moment, who was most influential in your life when it comes to the way that you think about money kind of positively?
00:22:55,328 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, it was definitely my grandfather. Um, he … I grew up living right across the street from him, and he was definitely a tough love kind of guy. So-
00:23:03,528 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:23:03,978 [Kelsa Dickey]
… you know, whether or not, looking back, you know, whether or not he knew my mom was struggling financially and just sort of was like, you know, the tough love sort of like, “You gotta figure this out on your own,” sort of thing, I could see him doing that. Or if my mom simply didn’t share with him, I’m not sure. Um, but he had an eighth-grade education, and he ran a very successful business, and it was very much, um, a community business in the sense that he just served people really well, and he was a really good guy, and he just was all about taking care of people and running a business in a good way, and he was very trusted in our community. And a lot of it was, I think some of the things he taught me were, um, you know, you can learn and that your degree doesn’t necessarily make you successful or not. Um, so it’s one of those things that when people sort of like try to express to me, like the letters after their name or … It, to me, it like doesn’t make you a good person or not a good person. You know what I mean?
00:24:00,918 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:24:01,428 [Kelsa Dickey]
So I see how successful my dad wa- or my grandpa was with an eighth-grade education and how much respect he had. Um, I remember, you know, going over to his house, and he would talk to me about mutual funds and how, you know, you need to budget your money, and he would say things like that. And again, it was a little bit of like a gruff sort of approach, and yet I look back on that, and I’m like, that was really my first experience of hearing
00:24:24,668 [Kelsa Dickey]
somebody who really loved money. Like, he loved talking about it. He loved analyzing it. He loved watching, you know, the ticker on the screen to see what was happening in the stock market and things like that, and he didn’t shy away from talking to us about it. Um, and part of me always has wondered, you know, did he do that with my mom growing up and she either just didn’t understand it, or maybe he was trying to correct with his grandkids, you know, that he, the things he didn’t do as a father with his kids or something like that. I’m not sure. Uh, these are all things that now that I’m adult I wish, you know … Unfortunately, he’s not around anymore, and I wish he was ’cause these are questions I would ask him, you know?
00:25:00,888 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that, I was gonna ask you that. I said, “So what happened with your mom?” I mean, you’re not- you’re not gonna necessarily know that, but I- I’d be curious. Yeah, I- I totally understand that curiosity to find out did- was he not talking to them? And it wouldn’t- wouldn’t- it would not have been uncommon for him to not talk about it.
00:25:17,760 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah. And, you know, my mom now is retired and she’s doing very well in retirement. And I look back at that time of her life, and, you know, she was a single mom raising three kids. We sh- we very rarely ever heard no, and I think a big part of it was she was just trying to make us happy and didn’t understand. My sisters and I have now talked about, I like to share this with my clients too, it, we’ve talked, we talk now about how there’s so many times where we just really wish we would’ve heard no, because we have some guilt
00:25:45,080 [Kelsa Dickey]
growing up around, like, the things that we were able to enjoy that then caused my mom a lot of financial stress. And it, uh, you know, we didn’t know that at the time. We were way too young to sort of have that, um, knowledge or awareness. And yet, gosh, like, we would’ve been so much happier had she been happier, right? And I like to tell my clients all the time that, like, nothing is better for your children than happy parents, and involved parents, and that kind of thing. So, like, there’s no toy that you can buy them or game or anything like that that can replace your happiness. And I know that because I experienced, like, receiving a lot of things. We were very involved in a bunch of different sports and travel, and like, like I said, we very rarely heard no. And there’s so many times where I would look at my mom and just be like, “I wish she was, like, not so stressed right now.” You know? And it was all due to money.
00:26:33,940 [John Lanza]
Yeah. And- and I assume that there wasn’t … So there, there was no allowance in place, right?
00:26:40,220 [Kelsa Dickey]
There was not, no. So I- a lot of it came down when I went to college, I started experimenting, really and truly. I just started to, like, try different things. And, you know, I would help people in the dorm with, you know, paying bills for the first time because they didn’t talk about it with their parents either, and so it was new to them. And, um, I really just started experimenting from a young age as far as, like, my own study on what works and what doesn’t work, and really noticing really early that what might work for me might be a little different for somebody else. And, you know, how I might like cash but somebody else is not going to like cash, and just little things like that that you really have to find how can a person feel successful with money? That is really important, and personal finance is personal, and so we have to find what’s going to work for you. And the plan that a client gets on as far as, like, what type of way that they manage their money might be totally different than the person coming in right after them, and I think that’s really cool. Like, I think that’s a very beautiful thing. And as long as they feel proud of it, ultimately that is the best sort of, source of motivation, if you ask me, is, like, what’s going to get you excited about this?
00:27:48,880 [John Lanza]
[laughs] Yeah, that makes sense. So, uh, but you started in investment, right? You were an investment advisor?
00:27:56,860 [Kelsa Dickey]
I did. I try not to remember that time of my life.
00:27:59,380 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:27:59,440 [Kelsa Dickey]
Um, no, but … And this was … So when I was a senior in high school, a college recruiter came to our school and, you know, was doing little interviews and that kinda thing, and he said, “What do you wanna do when you’re older?” And I said, “I wanna help people with their money.” And he said, “You should be a financial advisor.” And, you know, mind you, this was, oh God, 15, 20 years ago, and so, um, financial coaching was not a thing. And even now, financial coaching is very much at the infancy stage of the industry and, uh, as a profession overall. And so I said, “Okay, that sounds great. Yeah, like, I get to advise people on money? That’s exactly what I wanna do.” Uh, so I got my degree in finance, became fully licensed, practiced as an advisor for three years, and what I found was the people that I really liked working with were the people that would come in and say, like, “We’re in debt. Can you help us, like, get outta debt?”
00:28:46,520 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:28:46,630 [Kelsa Dickey]
Or, “Can you help us figure out a debt payoff schedule?” And I’d be like, “Yeah, that’s great. Let’s, like, geek out on that.”
00:28:50,780 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:28:51,289 [Kelsa Dickey]
And as an advisor, like, I wasn’t getting paid for that [laughs], so it was definitely a tough few years. And then I also just sort of had this revelation of, like, my mom at the time had a financial advisor. And like I said, she’s doing great in retirement now because that money went right out of her paycheck and went into retirement, thank God. Um, it was really like once the money came into her checking account, how do you know what to do with it? Like, what’s the right thing to do with it? Do you spend it? Do you save it? And if you spend it, what do you spend it on? Like, what’s going to give you the most fulfillment? What’s going to make you the happiest and most content? And that was the part of money she struggled with. And as an advisor, I just simply wasn’t helping people with that part of it. So I joke that I had a bit of a quarter-life crisis because I was really young and I sort of went into it thinking that was going to be my dream career, and when it wasn’t, um,
00:29:39,240 [Kelsa Dickey]
I sorta didn’t know what to do with myself. I got my master’s in accounting, and that’s when really my business became a hobby, so I just started helping people on the side. I was in corporate accounting working full time, but I would just … You know, a coworker would be stressed and they’d say it was about money, or they didn’t, they got into a fight that morning with their spouse and I’d say, “Why don’t you come over after work and I’ll see what I can do?” And it really just took off. Um, the company that I was with at the time, we, moved us to Arizona, which is where we are now, in Phoenix, and, uh, once I moved here, I realized that I was helping people who didn’t know me. So, I feel like in, in Michigan where I was from, college friends and acquaintances all knew me as, like, the money girl. Like, they just knew that I had a passion for it, and so I felt like that’s why they were letting me help them. Well, then I moved to Phoenix and strangers were letting me help them, like, manage their money better, and I thought, “Wow, I might be onto something here.”
00:30:29,620 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:30:29,850 [Kelsa Dickey]
“Like, this might be what I was meant to do.” Um, and that’s really when we just started playing with the idea of, like, well, what would I call myself? And again, this was 11 years ago now, and decided financial coach was a better term for me than financial advisor. And, uh, yeah, the rest is history.
00:30:46,100 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that’s- that’s- that’s great. And it’s- it’s, uh, you picked a … You’re much better off having a quarter-life crisis [laughs]-
00:30:52,510 [Kelsa Dickey]
[laughs]
00:30:52,990 [John Lanza]
… than- than waiting-
00:30:53,820 [Kelsa Dickey]
I agree with that
00:30:54,190 [John Lanza]
… maybe when
00:30:54,660 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, I do.
00:30:55,420 [John Lanza]
[laughs]. That was, that’s great-
00:30:57,520 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah
00:30:57,530 [John Lanza]
… that you were able to recognize that and- and- and make that change. Um, I wanted to pick up on something that you had said. We actually talked about this, uh, when you interviewed me, but it’s this idea that parents have. You- you said you don’t have to think of an allowance as a separate line item in your budget-
00:31:15,960 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah
00:31:15,970 [John Lanza]
… if you are budgeting. And I think that’s a really important point because-The … Well, I- I’ll let you elaborate on it.
00:31:24,775 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yes, okay. I think this is really important too because oftentimes, if we’re strapped for cash or, you know, we’re on a fairly tight budget and then the idea of, like, creating an allowance structure, the first comment is like, “Well, where does that money come from?” And really and truly, you’re already spending this money, we’re just going to change the way you’re spending it. So instead of when your child comes to you and said, “Can I go to the movies?” Or, “Hey, I want a new pair of shoes,” or, you know, any number of things, “Can I download some more things from this app,” right? Instead of saying like, “Yeah, here’s the money for it,” you’re going to give them an allowance. The allowance becomes a line item on the budget, and the allowance covers the things you are already paying for oftentimes. So it’s not an additional line item, we’re simply moving money, we’re shifting it around a little bit, and we’re putting it in their hands so that they can decide how they spend it, um, you know, of course with your guidance and coaching and that kind of thing, but, um … And the funny thing is, and I know you know this too, Jo- is that, um, they- they will oftentimes spend it very differently when it’s their money [laughs] versus-
00:32:27,886 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:32:27,886 [Kelsa Dickey]
… when it’s mom or dad’s money, so, um, so it does not have to be where w- we are trying to come up with more money.
00:32:34,815 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I think that- that last point is that, you know, you’re giving them responsibility and when they- when they are spending their own money, they are much more cognizant of how they’re spending that, versus when you’re just handing the money to them on a piecemeal basis. Good I- I’m glad. I wanted to touch on that. I thought that was an important point, so.
00:32:54,196 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, and not only that, but it will cut down on the number of questions you have to answer too. You know, as far as like, “Can I have this? Can I have this? Can I have this?” And it doesn’t happen overnight, as I’m sure you know, so it’s not like all of a sudden this happens and every, you know, it’s easy transition and everybody gets it. It takes a little transition time and they- they’re gonna need some guidance and some follow through, but, um, the idea is after a while, those questions really cease because they know that the answer is if you want to spend your money on it, you can, sort of thing. But that’s sort of like your money to spend.
00:33:24,295 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:33:24,576 [Kelsa Dickey]
And it does cut down on the number of, like, nos or yeses that you have to even respond to.
00:33:30,136 [John Lanza]
Yeah, it really is very practical because, like you said, now they’re not- they’re not asking you for every little thing. They just have to deal, um, themselves. You know, th- they will, there will be some negotiation from time to time about some of these things and that’s okay.
00:33:44,396 [Kelsa Dickey]
Of course.
00:33:44,436 [John Lanza]
That’s part of the process and I think that’s good.
00:33:47,396 [Kelsa Dickey]
A- absolutely.
00:33:48,315 [John Lanza]
Well, I want to move into our fast and fun round. So these are questions-
00:33:51,985 [Kelsa Dickey]
Okay
00:33:51,985 [John Lanza]
… that I like to ask each of our guests. Are you ready, Kelsa?
00:33:55,555 [Kelsa Dickey]
I’m ready.
00:33:56,396 [John Lanza]
Okay. So what does the term money empowered mean to you?
00:34:04,835 [Kelsa Dickey]
Money empowered, to me, means somebody who is confident and proud of the choices they’re making, they feel satisfied with how they’ve spent their money and they are looking forward to the things that they can do with their money. They feel like they have clarity on what they want and that they have a plan in place with their money to achieve that.
00:34:28,476 [John Lanza]
Wonderful, thank you.
00:34:29,596 [Kelsa Dickey]
Mm-hmm.
00:34:30,596 [John Lanza]
What is the best investment of time or money, now your kids are young, but, uh, that you’ve ever spent on your kids in their young lives [laughs]?
00:34:40,315 [Kelsa Dickey]
You know, I would definitely say books and reading time. Um, I’m not sure that much can
00:34:48,076 [Kelsa Dickey]
overcome that for us in our family. Like, just sitting down and reading with them and talking about what’s on the page and hearing the way they can interpret the images on a page, even at two and three and what they see and how it’s different from what I’m seeing and, um, I mean, we have so many books and, uh, you know, we have
00:35:07,636 [Kelsa Dickey]
a family member who loves to spoil our children with gifts-
00:35:11,156 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:35:12,185 [Kelsa Dickey]
… and, um, it’s something we’re working on. We’re having some conversations around that right now actually, and, uh, I will say that the one thing that, like, never bothers me when we get more of is- is books.
00:35:23,836 [John Lanza]
Um, can I dig in on that for one sec?
00:35:26,096 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yes [laughs].
00:35:27,036 [John Lanza]
So, uh, would you … ‘Cause this is- this is something that comes up a lot, and we really haven’t talked a ton about it on the podcast, so
00:35:35,476 [John Lanza]
this is something that we dealt with as well, uh, that the issue with a, you know, there’s a certain amount of, uh, I- I’ll assume it’s a grandparent, but a certain amount of grandparent privilege, um, that- that- that grandparents like to invoke and- and they deserve that, I suppose. What- how are you ha- how are you having a conversation with someone who’s not necessarily following your money philosophy?
00:36:00,196 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yes. This has been definitely a big challenge ever since Christmas of this last year, and, um, when I say that Grandma bought our children a lot of toys, um, I can honestly say, and this is not an exaggeration, I’m pretty sure our children received 40 to 50 toys each.
00:36:20,006 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:36:20,036 [Kelsa Dickey]
Okay, so this is a major problem, um, and it caused a lot of anxiety on my part as far as, like, organizing and trying to keep things, you know, clutter-free or just where are we keeping all these things, and, um, we went to a farm on vacation as a family, just the four of us, and we had this little, you know, tiny home on a farm. We allowed the kids to take one toy each, and it was amazing to watch them for four days enjoy one toy and, like, their imagination just soared and the amount of pretend that they did, and we just had so much fun wandering around the farm, like, ea- feeding the animals and talking with them, and I just realized that simple is better and, you know, the toy, the number of toys that they have, they- they fight over them. It’s just this really weird dynamic that all of a sudden they’re around these, you know, bins and bins full of toys and I was witnessing very obviously that it’s not making them happier. If anything, it’s making them less happy. Um, and so I will tell you that the approach that we took and, you know, to be determined if it’s going to work or not, but I was really struggling with … If you’ve ever read The Five Love Languages, the book, um, I- I do believe that my mother-in-law’s love language is gift buying. And so there was this struggle that I had around where if this is how she shows love, who am I to say that she can’t show love that way? Right?
00:37:47,286 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:37:47,506 [Kelsa Dickey]
And then there was this other piece of it, which was like, but we don’t want this many toys in our house, and I don’t feel like it’s b- what’s best for our children. Um, and we decided … And then I felt bad, like if we just say, “Okay, she can buy all these toys,” but then we end up donating them or giving them to foster families or something like that, well, then that makes me feel bad because it’s their hard-earned money. It’s money that they chose to spend and now we’re, like, not even keeping the toy, and that made me feel really guilty. And, um, so the approach that we have taken recently is to sit down and talk with her about it, and say, “Here’s what we’re seeing as our options. We don’t want to make you feel badly.” You know, “We, um, would like to cut down on the number of gifts that they receive, or we would like for you to spend more time with them as far as a gift, so maybe you wanna buy ’em a zoo membership or, you know, something like that. So more experiences. If you want to wrap those and somehow, you know, may have them open that, that’s okay. You know, but we really want to limit the number of gifts that come into our house. Or what will happen is we plan to donate a number of them, and we simply want you to be aware of that, and we wo- don’t want you to be insulted by it.” Like, we’re essentially giving her the option, if you will, as to, like, how does she want to move forward? Um, one of the things that really makes me feel terrible is my mother and father-in-law do a road trip across the country every year, and they’ll sometimes go along the Pacific Coast. Sometimes they’ll go along the middle of the country, sometimes the South, and they do it every year. And every year as they’re planning it, you know, they’ll say things like, “Oh, well, we had to stay in this hotel just because it was, like, you know, the price was right,” or, “Oh, we got to this city and we really couldn’t find a cheap hotel,” and, like, stuff like that. And I think, “God, I would love for you to just go and spend $400 on a hotel stay and not buy our kids so many gifts,” you know?
00:39:33,416 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:39:33,426 [Kelsa Dickey]
Like, I’d really rather them just enjoy their money, and yet I … Then my thought is, “Well, what they enjoy is buying our children gifts,” you know?
00:39:42,946 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:39:42,986 [Kelsa Dickey]
So it’s this continuous struggle, and I will not admit to having, like, an answer. Um, I
00:39:50,726 [Kelsa Dickey]
believe her reaction was, you know, she totally understands and, you know, she wants what’s best for the ch- the children ultimately, and that she will try to buy fewer gifts, and that she, you know, won’t take it personally if they, you know, don’t stick around at our house for very long.
00:40:05,566 [John Lanza]
Okay.
00:40:05,606 [Kelsa Dickey]
So that is the approach that we took, was essentially to kind of like just talk with her about it and see what her- what her thoughts were.
00:40:12,666 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that- it- it- re- [sighs] that’s- it’s a- such a tough thing to address because, like you said, you know, she is coming at it from a … She- she’s not … She’s coming at it from a loving perspective, right?
00:40:26,586 [Kelsa Dickey]
Mm-hmm.
00:40:26,795 [John Lanza]
Um, and I will put that … What was the name of the book?
00:40:29,526 [Kelsa Dickey]
Five Love Languages.
00:40:30,676 [John Lanza]
Okay, so we’ll- we’ll put that in the show notes. I wanted to bring up something. I just got an email about this, but it’s this concept. Have you ever heard, uh, heard of non-violent communication?
00:40:39,266 [Kelsa Dickey]
Oh, no, but … [laughs]
00:40:40,946 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I’m gonna send you this-
00:40:42,786 [Kelsa Dickey]
Okay
00:40:42,956 [John Lanza]
… and I just found out about this. It’s, uh, there’s a guy named Marshall Rosenberg. He developed this concept in the ’60s, but it- it’s a way of reframing conversations and improving relationships that I think really could be effective. I’ll p- I’ll post something in the show notes. I got it through, uh, a mess- a, um, newsletter I get through a- a company called Clearer Thinking, but it just made me think that they’re … That framing the question in a way that is kind of… Uh, they- what they do is they just kind of … You observe the facts of the situation, you note feelings, you uncover desires, then you make requests. And it’s really that making requests after you’ve kind of seen things from their perspective that can be really effective.
00:41:25,386 [Kelsa Dickey]
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:41:26,236 [John Lanza]
Um, so it’s just … I- and I can’t talk in detail about it, but it- it makes me think that that- th- th- those two things, the book that you mentioned as well as this non-violent communication, could be really effective in dealing with, um, some issues that come up when you’re trying to raise your kids one way and then someone else is taking a different approach. And we’ve run into that- that issue from time to time, and it’s not easy to have those conversations. So I- I- I wanna make it so that people can have easier and better convers- Well, it’s not even the easier, better conversations. Just have conversations that are fruitful and that- that- that work to an outcome that works for both you and for whoever the gift-giver is, particularly because, like you said, they’re coming at it from a loving perspective, so you have to figure out a way that-
00:42:13,296 [Kelsa Dickey]
Absolutely
00:42:13,296 [John Lanza]
… yeah, that- that works. So, uh-
00:42:14,706 [Kelsa Dickey]
And there’s part of it, I wanted her to know that I appreciate that when she is at the store or that she … I mean, I n- have no doubt that she thinks about our children all of the time, and I love that. I don’t ever want her to feel badly about that. You know? But, you know, she doesn’t just buy gifts at Christmas. It will be Valentine’s Day and St. Patrick’s Day, and I’m not kidding you, President’s Day. The kids got, like, a little mug with a president on it and l- you know, a little cup, and things like that. And, you know, every time she comes, we just want her to know that, like, our children love you so much. You do not need to bring them a gift every time you come. We- we don’t want them to expect that, right?
00:42:48,636 [John Lanza]
Right.
00:42:49,426 [Kelsa Dickey]
Um, I will … Just a couple of tips is, it took Michael and I probably two months of us talking about it and getting on the same page and trying to figure out what the right approach was and … before we ever said anything to her. So, you know, give yourself permission to do that. Talk amongst yourselves first. You know, have some unity there. Um, and then I- I just wanted to say the- the Five Love Language book’s, just a quick summary for the listeners who have never heard of it before, the premise of it is that there’s … Each of us have a preferred way of showing love and also a preferred way of receiving love. And it’s things like active service or verbal communication. Um, you know, so people saying things like, “Oh my God, I love you so much,” is really important to somebody … touch or physical intimacy, um, and I’m not going to do it a good dis- a good service. Um, but the idea is that Michael and I know very well that receiving gifts is simply not important to us. Like, we don’t give each other a lot of gifts. We don’t, I don’t need a gift on Valentine’s Day to feel loved, and he’s very much the same way. And so, we understand that our way of receiving love is very different or the exact polar opposite of her way of showing it. So, it’s a really great book. I highly recommend it even just for a husband and wife to figure out like, “Well, how do we each need to see, you know, to show love to each other?”
00:44:08,250 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Well, uh, we will definitely put that in the show notes. That sounds like a, a great book, so thanks for sharing that.
00:44:13,290 [Kelsa Dickey]
You’re welcome.
00:44:14,650 [John Lanza]
Okay, so I have two more fast and fun round questions. Uh, we, we, we veered off, but I thought that was-
00:44:19,970 [Kelsa Dickey]
I was gonna say, we’re not doing this very fast
00:44:21,830 [John Lanza]
[laughs] We’re not doing it fast.
00:44:23,220 [Kelsa Dickey]
And I’m sorry about that. [laughs]
00:44:23,230 [John Lanza]
But, but I, I thought that was a great aside, so I’m glad we did it. If you could transmit a message that everyone would see that has to do with money, money smarts, could be about kids, could just be about general money smarts, what would it say? So, it’d be on billboards, it would be sky-written, but everybody would see it in some way.
00:44:41,610 [Kelsa Dickey]
Hmm. I’m not very good at coming up with like creative buzzwords or really cool sayings, but I would say the message that I would be trying to portray and that I would totally hire somebody to come up with something cool, but is the idea of being intentional with your money, putting it behind what’s important to you, um, really, you know, setting goals and simply being intentional with how you spend your money.
00:45:02,530 [John Lanza]
Great. And, uh, what is the one parenting or money smarts book, um, aside from The Five Love Languages, that you go back to or gift the most often? Unless that is the gift that you give the most often.
00:45:17,850 [Kelsa Dickey]
Um, what is a book that I give the most often? It’s not specifically about money, but I find that it’s really connects to almost everything, is The Power of Moments.
00:45:30,930 [John Lanza]
Hmm.
00:45:31,050 [Kelsa Dickey]
Which is by Chip and Dan Heath. It is about how certain memories in our life are more memorable than others, and what makes that so. And once you figure out what makes something memorable, you can start to duplicate it. And you can start to create really beautiful memories out of very, you know, subtle or basic moments. And I just think it’s a really beautiful book, and it attaches to money and work and family, and, uh, it’s, it’s amazing.
00:45:58,850 [John Lanza]
Great. So, uh, Kelsa, how can people find you on social media and/or the web?
00:46:06,310 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, you can find us by searching Fiscal Fitness Phoenix. Say that five times fast.
00:46:12,200 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:46:12,430 [Kelsa Dickey]
So, Fiscal Fitness Phoenix. Um, also Kelsa Dickey. It’s a pretty unique name, so, um, you can simply search that and it will come up. And then also, our podcast that you mentioned, The Saver and the Spender, um, it’s really Michael and I share ideas. He’s a spender, as you know, and I’m a saver. And so how do we make that work? How have we found some creative ways to support one another and embrace the other personality? Because I really do think both are very needed.
00:46:39,130 [John Lanza]
Well, excellent. And is there any kind of action you’d like, uh, anybody in the audience to take that would be helpful for you?
00:46:46,270 [Kelsa Dickey]
Yeah, I, I mean, I definitely think the podcast, like, you know, on Facebook we share the podcast and we also share lots of videos and resources and articles and that kind of thing. So, if you’re on Facebook, that’s a really great place to go as well. We try to keep money very fun and lighthearted and, um, lots of really good resources and tips for, on Facebook as well.
00:47:05,130 [John Lanza]
Excellent. Well, Kelsa, I really appreciated this conversation. Had a lot of fun. I think we delved into some really interesting, interesting topics and some deep topics, so I appreciate you sharing all your knowledge, uh, with me, and, uh, thank you.
00:47:19,290 [Kelsa Dickey]
Thank you so much for having me.
00:47:25,150 [Kelsa Dickey]
[instrumental music]
00:47:26,510 [John Lanza]
If you liked this episode of The Art of Allowance Podcast, I’d really appreciate it if you could give the show a review in iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Of course, please consult with a financial or investment professional before engaging in any decisions that might affect your own financial wellbeing, and find out more about our movement at theartofallowance.com. You can download a sample or get a copy of my new book, The Art of Allowance, and use the checkout code “podcast” to spend smart and save yourself a few bucks. The book is also available on Amazon. You might want to check out The Money Mammals, our program to get your kids excited about money smarts when they’re young. And until next time, I wish you and your family well on your own journey to money empowerment. Thanks for listening!