“One of, if not the main way, that kids learn about money is through actually practicing themselves.”
Ashley LeBaron
This episode of The Art of Allowance Podcast features Ashley LeBaron, a researcher in Family Studies and Human Development at The University of Arizona. Her research focuses on family finance, including couple finance and financial socialization.
Below is a sampling of the topics we discuss:
- A University of Arizona article highlighting Ashley’s work as well as the corresponding academic research paper (Reading the paper itself will help you grasp the leap from discussion and modeling to experiential learning in the area of financial socialization.)
- Ashley’s “A ha!” moment after listening to her fellow Millennials’ feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness
- Financial socialization: “the way that we come to have the behaviors and values that we do”
- Understanding “relative mistakes” matters.
- Kids feel the financial stress whether you discuss it or not, and not talking about finances can make matters worse.
- Grades’ being de-motivating (as discussed in Daniel Pink’s Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us)
- Decoupling chores and allowance
- Making kids aware of their own values and goals
- Giving and gratitude
- Ashley’s book recommendations: Bernard Poduska’s For Love & Money and Ron Lieber’s The Opposite of Spoiled
- Ashley’s contact information: Google Scholar, The University of Arizona and [email protected]
You can listen to our conversation on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or Radio Public.
If you enjoyed this episode, then be sure to check out my discussion with SRCD Director of Science Chuck Kalish, which also touches on the concept of financial socialization.
My conversation with fellow researcher Elizabeth Odders-White also includes great information on the related notion of scaffolding.
SHOW NOTES
- A bit about Ashley and her research [4:46]
- How Ashley got into family finance by accident [5:25]
- The Millennial financial frustration [7:22]
- Ashley’s definition of the term “financial socialization” and why this concept is so important [10:08]
- Parents as the main socialization agents [11:18]
- Financial mistakes and their relative impacts [13:23]
- Two main financial socialization methods [15:52]
- Experiential learning, financial socialization and self-regulation [16:44]
- Spending versus spending wisely [21:18]
- The trifecta of discussion, positive modeling and experiential learning in financial parenting [22:34]
- Demystifying parents’ positive modeling concerns [23:18]
- Experiential learning sources and motivation [28:23]
- Top money habits that kids should learn [35:07]
- Cleaning up the money conversation [38:46]
- What “money empowered’ means to Ashley [41:02]
- The best lesson Ashley learned from her parents about money [41:24]
- Ashley’s message: “Live intentionally, and be kind.” [42:31]
- Favorite books about financial socialization and couple finance [43:21]
- How to find Ashley on the Web: a lesson on Google Scholar [44:27]
Click here for the full transcript.
Please subscribe to our show to allow me to have additional conversations with parents and discover new ideas to help us all raise money-smart, money-empowered kids. You can find out more about our movement at themoneymammals.com/aoa as well as download a sample or get a copy of my new book, The Art of Allowance. You might also want to check out The Money Mammals, our program to get your children excited about money smarts when they’re young. Until next time, I wish you and your family well as you journey forth. Thanks for listening.
Full Transcript
This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 15, featuring host John Lanza and guest Ashley LeBaron.
00:00:00,130 [John Lanza]
Hi, this is your host, John Lanza, and I want to welcome you to Episode 15 of The Art of Allowance Podcast.
00:00:09,160 [Ashley LeBaron]
Parents are worried that they’re not gonna be good enough financial educators, and I think that’s one of the reasons why parents, um, don’t really talk to their kids about money, kind of do finances behind closed doors, is they- yeah, they’re worried that they don’t know enough or they’ve- they’re not very good with their finances, and so it’s better to just do nothing, and that’s so false. Um, I think kids can learn, and the research shows, that kids can learn a lot from both positive and even not-so-positive examples. [upbeat music]
00:00:48,980 [John Lanza]
In this episode, I talk with Ashley LeBaron. She’s a doctoral student in family studies and human development at the University of Arizona. Her research focus is family finance, very appropriate for us, uh, including couple finance and financial socialization. If you don’t know what that is, we will unpack that for you. Ashley was valedictorian for the College of Family, Home, and Social Sciences at Brigham Young University in 2016, and graduate student of the year for the Utah Council on Family Relations in 2018. Pretty impressive. Ashley came to my attention through a friend of mine, who sent me an article about her and her research, and in particular, the research paper entitled “Practice Makes Perfect: Experiential Learning as a Method for Financial Socialization.” Again, we will unpack what those terms mean, and we discuss that paper at length. And we talk also about experiential learning and positive modeling, and the combination of those two really helps make the case for the importance of personal reflection for us as adults and parents when we’re going through the process of teaching our kids money-smart behaviors. It’s really an opportunity to kind of grab hold and make sure that we are doing the things that we want to be doing with our money as a good way of modeling that for our kids, while we’re also giving them the opportunity to learn experientially, um, on their own. So that’s a good part of our discussion, and we also wade into the, uh, debate about paying for grades. I had read that that was demotivating in Dan Pink’s book, Drive, which is a terrific book. I highly recommend it. But he talks about the fact that when you remove the incentive for paying for grades, which is money, do the grades stay up? And they don’t. Uh, so, so it’s not really a great motivational tool. And we talk about that because she had mentioned that the money- whether getting money in kids’ hands is so important, and I just wasn’t sure if paying for grades was the best way to do that. But we both agreed the main point is that because experiential, experiential learning is so important, it might be more important than the source of money, and really, what kids have to have is the, the real money experiences. So we talk a little bit more about that. And then, finally, when we talked about gratitude, I- [chuckles] my brain sometimes just doesn’t work quickly enough, and I, I wanted to mention, uh, the book, Happy Money, because it’s organized into five strategies that we can use to kind of flip the script on this idea that money can’t buy us happiness. It can’t in general, but we can use money to make us happier. That’s really the kind of, um, idea behind the book, uh, and Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton identify one of the strategies being that giving is really one of the best ways we can use our money to make ourselves happier. And again, it’s another book that I highly recommend, and if I could just get Elizabeth or Michael on the podcast, that would be terrific because I would love to interview them. If you know them, please let them know that The Art of Allowance Podcast would love to have them on. Well, without further ado, let’s listen to our conversation, or my conversation, with Ashley LeBaron. [upbeat music] Welcome, Ashley.
00:04:31,020 [Ashley LeBaron]
Thank you, John. Happy to be here.
00:04:33,260 [John Lanza]
Well, you came to my attention because a friend of mine sent me an article that was highlighting your latest research about kids and families and money, and we’re gonna get into some of the weeds on that, but I think, uh, I’d first like to have you tell me and tell our audience a little bit about yourself.
00:04:52,640 [Ashley LeBaron]
Great. Um, like you said, I research family finance. I actually grew up in Utah, and I got my undergraduate and master’s degrees from Brigham Young University in family studies and human development. Um, and that’s when I started researching family finance, was actually during my undergraduate. Um, and then I am now at the University of Arizona, still studying and researching …
00:05:20,320 [John Lanza]
[chuckles]
00:05:20,330 [Ashley LeBaron]
… and just having a lot of fun.
00:05:22,960 [John Lanza]
That’s great. And what was it that got you into family finance?
00:05:30,420 [Ashley LeBaron]
Oh, good question. It was actually kind of by accident. [chuckles] My advisor in my undergraduate and master’s, I chose him because he was a great mentor, and I just wanted to work with him, and he happened to research family finance. And so my plan was to just research that until I figured out what I actually wanted to study. [laughing]
00:05:53,430 [John Lanza]
[laughing]
00:05:53,440 [Ashley LeBaron]
And then once I, um, well, you know, was involved with a few, uh, research papers and projects, I just kind of started falling in love with it and realized how impactful it was … how impactful money is in family relationships, both, you know, couple relationships and parenting, how much it mattered, and how needed, um, good researchers were in that field, how much we don’t know, and I just got excited about it, and have been going and loving it ever since, so.
00:06:24,304 [John Lanza]
That’s funny. That’s kind of similar to how I started what we’re doing here with the Money Mammals and The Art of Allowance, was just we …
00:06:31,954 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:06:31,954 [John Lanza]
… when we had our kids, we kind of- my wife and I knew we wanted to raise them to be money smart, and we looked into it, and but kind of my natural reaction was, “Well, let’s, let’s try to make it fun for the kids.” And as we …
00:06:45,273 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:06:45,273 [John Lanza]
… delved into it, kind of like you found, is you realize the need is so massive, and that you do need to …
00:06:51,944 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:06:52,014 [John Lanza]
… start young. Yeah, so that’s, that’s, that’s great. Was there any, like, one particular, you know, uh, uh, paper that you read or a kind of experience that you had in your past that, that then kind of crossed paths with the research you, that you were doing that, that, that led to that? Or was it just kind of the [chuckles] uh, overwhelming sense that we- this is something that needs, needs more research being done about it?
00:07:19,584 [Ashley LeBaron]
I don’t know that it was one moment, but I think the, the real clincher for me was the first big project, research project I was a part of, um, is called “The What’s and How’s of Family Financial Socialization.” And the, um, experiential learning paper that I think you’re gonna be, um, asking me about today was part of that project.
00:07:41,284 [John Lanza]
Got it. Okay.
00:07:41,924 [Ashley LeBaron]
And as we were doing the interviews for that project, and I was talking to, um, some emerging adult students who were, you know, about my age, and some of their parents and grandparents, there I, I realized kind of the frustration, I guess, that, um,
00:08:02,864 [Ashley LeBaron]
that so many of my peers were feeling about finances. There, there was this kind of general feeling that they, they were frustrated because they hadn’t been prepared, and they were struggling financially, and it w- they were frustrated. They … You know, this was- they were in college, and for the first time, they were on their own, trying desperately to handle money, you know, trying to take on this student debt, and they just, you know, they realized that they hadn’t been prepared for this. They didn’t know what they were doing, and I kind of had this aha moment, but over [chuckles] you know, a period of months, that, you- there had to be more that we could be doing to better prepare kids for financial adulthood, so that
00:08:53,264 [Ashley LeBaron]
next generations after millennials aren’t as frustrated and struggling so much. It was- it felt like people, people felt powerless, helpless, and it was sad for me to see that, and I’m part of that generation, too. And so …
00:09:05,564 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:09:05,904 [Ashley LeBaron]
… it was just, it was just a feeling that we can be doing better.
00:09:09,644 [John Lanza]
Yeah, it does seem like there are articles, like, every other day, about how bad millennials are with money, right? Doesn’t that seem to be …
00:09:16,304 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yep
00:09:16,534 [John Lanza]
… kind of out in the zeitgeist now? [chuckles]
00:09:18,454 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yep. [chuckles] And I’m a millennial, so that’s [chuckles] …
00:09:21,084 [John Lanza]
Well, I’m not sure. So I’m, I’m Generation X, and we were just the complete, you know, loser generation when they- when that book came out …
00:09:27,724 [Ashley LeBaron]
[chuckles]
00:09:27,774 [John Lanza]
… and identified us Generation X. You know, and then, you know, then that, that, that, that changes once you get your act together. So I’m, I’m not even sure if it’s necessarily true, but I, I’m not surprised that when you’re talking to as many millennials as I know you’ve interviewed, that you’re not, you …
00:09:42,664 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:09:42,744 [John Lanza]
… you’re running into those issues. So, um …
00:09:45,404 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:09:45,904 [John Lanza]
… and it’s- I think that’s, this is a good segue into o- one of the, a question I wanted to ask you. ‘Cause I, I wanted to start with a quote from an article that I read, a quote from you, where you said, um, “If the first time the kids use a credit card, or have to work, or save up for something, or have a bank account is when they’re on their own, that’s not a good time to be practicing.” And …
00:10:07,224 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm.
00:10:07,824 [John Lanza]
Yeah, and I, I really, I reached out to you because you’re focused on this financial socialization, real-world experience, which I think is at the heart of the issues that you’re talking about here. Um,
00:10:19,444 [John Lanza]
and it’s also at the core of kind of my interest in allowance, and, uh, and in, and money smart learning. Can … I think it may be helpful for you to give us, uh, your definition of the term financial socialization, and why it’s …
00:10:32,254 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:10:32,254 [John Lanza]
… so important when it comes to teaching our kids about money.
00:10:37,384 [Ashley LeBaron]
Um, financial socialization, I mean, I could look up the actual definition …
00:10:42,124 [John Lanza]
[chuckles]
00:10:42,134 [Ashley LeBaron]
… but basically in normal words, it is that throughout our lives, but especially during childhood and adolescence, we are socialized about finances, about money, meaning that we, um, are taught things, we observe other people’s financial behaviors, we are- Socialization means the way that we come to have the financial knowledge, attitudes, behaviors, values that we do. And if nothing else, the research in this field has shown again and again that the, by far, the, um, primary, the main socialization agent is parents. Kids learn more about money from their parents than they do from anywhere else. It’s, it’s amazing. You can’t … You know, the influence of parents can’t be replaced by a one-semester financial literacy class or
00:11:44,764 [Ashley LeBaron]
anything else. It’s, it’s parents. You know, what, what they teach or don’t teach their kids about money is gonna have a huge impact on their lives, because kids are being constantly socialized as they take in all this information.
00:11:59,356 [John Lanza]
Yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, I’m glad you’re beating the drum on that, ’cause I beat the same drum about the parents.
00:12:05,936 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm.
00:12:05,946 [John Lanza]
‘Cause we work with a lot of, uh, credit unions. We have a program where we license The, The Money Mammals, uh, to credit unions, so we, we help them …
00:12:14,596 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:12:14,676 [John Lanza]
… kind of communicate with, uh, parents and kids. But a lot of times, they’re- the focus, and, and it, and it comes from the right- a, a good place, is, “Well, we want to get into schools,” right? And …
00:12:26,756 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:12:27,296 [John Lanza]
… that’s all well and good, but really, what has to happen is that the parents have to get involved, because that’s the only way all the real-world stuff is going to work, right?
00:12:39,216 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right. And it, it makes sense to me that
00:12:42,916 [Ashley LeBaron]
habits and values can’t be learned in, you know, a short amount of time. Those things are, are learned throughout years, throughout a lifetime, and so it makes sense to me that parents who are … You know, that’s who kids are around, hopefully [chuckles] …
00:12:59,096 [John Lanza]
Yeah. [laughs]
00:12:59,826 [Ashley LeBaron]
… um, a lot, um, is, you know, where that’s coming from. So.
00:13:03,876 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah. Well, I’d like to, uh, to talk about … ‘Cause when, when they- w- when kids get this real-world experience, which is im- im …
00:13:13,246 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:13:13,276 [John Lanza]
… imperative by, uh, in- involving- the parents have to get involved in the, in this, this, the, the teaching of kids- teaching to kids, um, uh, about money. I’d like to talk just a little bit about mistakes, and again, I’m gonna quote you, ’cause I thought this was something that every parent should hear, which is, uh, “By giving children opportunities to manage finances early on, children can learn these lessons with minimal risk. So relatively, a 10-year-old …
00:13:40,656 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:13:40,826 [John Lanza]
… makes $50 mistakes, a 20-year-old makes $5,000 mistakes, and a 30-year-old makes $50,000 mistakes. Therefore, allowing children the freedom to make and learn from financial mistakes at a young age protects them from making mistakes later on that could have more severe repercussions.” I love the way you framed that kind of middle section about the dollar amount of the mistakes at each age, because that’s hugely instructive for parents. And [chuckles] you know, the only, uh, the only issue I would take with it is, a 20-year-old could make a, uh, a much, much larger mistake by going to an institution that costs way too much [chuckles] yeah, too much money for what they’re …
00:14:20,606 [Ashley LeBaron]
Sure, maybe we’re being too conservative.
00:14:22,076 [John Lanza]
[laughing] Right, if anything, right? Uh …
00:14:24,756 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right.
00:14:24,776 [John Lanza]
But …
00:14:25,036 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:14:25,276 [John Lanza]
… but it doesn’t- but the point is, the point is made, and it’s an excellent point, that, like, make the mistakes when they really don’t matter, right?
00:14:34,216 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right, yeah, and let those habits form. And the only way to let habits form is, you know, you gotta kind of stumble along at first.
00:14:41,296 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:14:41,736 [Ashley LeBaron]
But yeah, exactly. You don’t want the stumbling to be when they’re in college already.
00:14:46,876 [John Lanza]
Now, [exhales] what is it … Like, have you, is, is there, are there kind of- is there any specific research you can point to, um, that, to kind of give us a little more about this realization that you have about letting kids make mistakes? Like, is there … Because I, I think there, there’s a lot of talk out there that, you know, we have to, everybody has to fail upwards, and mistakes are key …
00:15:08,696 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:15:08,706 [John Lanza]
… and, and, uh, but I’m, I’m not sure that it always resonates with people. And I, I just, what I, what I love about having a researcher on the podcast like you is, you might be able to point to some specific research to say, “Okay, well, the reason that you’re doing this is because we have seen, you know, we’ve, we’ve seen this.”
00:15:30,756 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:15:31,366 [John Lanza]
So anything you want to add to that?
00:15:34,996 [Ashley LeBaron]
So, um, this paper was really fun for me to write, because, um, I think it was my biggest contribution so far to the field, because it was kind of a novel idea, um, in the family finance research field. So up to this point, research has focused, and, you know, the way that people, the researchers are talking about these issues, they were focusing on two main financial socialization methods, which are, uh, teaching or, like, discussion, actually talking to kids about money, teaching them specific concepts, and then, um, role modeling, where kids observe their parents’ financial behaviors, and, um, we often imitate what we see others doing. And so those were, um, talked about a lot and researched, and then as I did this qualitative project where I- it was more exploratory, and I was interviewing, um, people, trying to really figure out what and how this financial socialization is taking place in real families, this experiential learning bit, we, we noticed it as we were, um, coding and reading through these interviews, that it was coming up again and again and again.
00:16:54,016 [Ashley LeBaron]
And it was this, you know, huge light bulb moment, where I realized that
00:17:00,576 [Ashley LeBaron]
discussion and modeling aren’t the two only ways that parents are teaching their kids about money. One of, if not the main way, that kids learn about money is through actually practicing themselves, um, actually getting, you know, getting kids, uh, getting money into kids’ hands and letting them experience it for themselves, which is, you know, seems so obvious in hindsight, but, of course, as humans, we learn by doing …
00:17:30,516 [John Lanza]
[chuckles]
00:17:30,606 [Ashley LeBaron]
… not by, you know, being told. We learn by actually doing things.
00:17:34,316 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:17:34,656 [Ashley LeBaron]
Um, so anyway, in terms of the, the field at large, this experiential learning piece is pretty new, but looking back at research, you can kind of point to it here and there, where people have studied allowance, and it’s, you know, shown that kids can learn important things through allowance, through having money that they can actually handle on their own. But it wasn’t, it hasn’t been focused on until now, and I think part of that is, like you said, it- people haven’t really … we’ve been scared to let kids make mistakes and to give them responsibility, but we’re seeing the consequences of that now, and so it’s important that, that we’re finally talking about it and researching it more.
00:18:14,908 [John Lanza]
Yeah, particularly when it comes to money, because they, you know, people feel like, “Well, I, uh, am I teaching my kids that I’m, I’m wasting money? Am I, you know …
00:18:22,467 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:18:22,558 [John Lanza]
… am I … And if I’m giving them an allowance, you know, and, and we at times will advocate for a, you know, a larger allowance, and we know we are fortunate to be able to do that for our kids, and many of the people that do the same thing …
00:18:33,747 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:18:33,757 [John Lanza]
… are fortunate to be able to do that.” But again, it gets back to this issue of, okay, well, the mistakes, yes, they’re going to make mistakes. They’re gonna buy stuff. But first of all, they’re gonna buy stuff that you may not agree with, or they, they may buy stuff that is, uh, you know, go- just gets tossed or given back, given to charity, you know, within a very short period of time.
00:18:53,937 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm.
00:18:53,947 [John Lanza]
But the reality is those purchases are happening anyway in most cases.
00:19:00,428 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:19:00,668 [John Lanza]
You know, they’re just asking, and the, and the parent’s reaching into the pocket. I, I interviewed a mom, actually, in I think one of my first episodes, and, you know, that, that was … She, she was, she was moving into what we call a breakthrough allowance, so they- her kids were now getting $100 a month, and it sounded like a lot, and in …
00:19:17,967 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:19:17,977 [John Lanza]
… fact, her husband was like …
00:19:19,328 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:19:19,338 [John Lanza]
… “What?” Um …
00:19:21,227 [Ashley LeBaron]
[chuckles]
00:19:21,778 [John Lanza]
… but once they realized, once they went through the program, and, and once they started doing this, they realized, “Well, we were easily giving more money. Uh, more money was coming out of our pockets. We just weren’t tracking it before.” And, uh …
00:19:35,247 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:19:36,148 [John Lanza]
And I wanna just …
00:19:36,818 [Ashley LeBaron]
And it’s the kids’ choice what to do with that money.
00:19:39,608 [John Lanza]
Yes, ’cause there was something in your paper that I love, which is one of the young adults you interviewed, um, said that his mom would say, when he asked for something, said, “Well, feel free to get it, ’cause you’ve got your own money.” This is a kid who, you know, his parents …
00:19:53,428 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:19:53,628 [John Lanza]
… had something in place.
00:19:54,437 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:19:54,467 [John Lanza]
And, and he cited this as influential, because, one, he was never told he couldn’t get something, and he realized that every dollar of his own was valuable. But the- it’s really- we’ve- I find the same thing with our kids. When it- once it’s their money, you know …
00:20:08,507 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:20:08,568 [John Lanza]
… and, and they haven’t- we don’t tie it to chores, so they haven’t earned the money, but they’re using it as a way to, to, uh, it, it- even if they have it, the fact is, it’s their money. They are gonna treat their money much differently than, than they’re gonna treat your money, and they’re gonna self-regulate. They learn, and that’s what’s a key, right?
00:20:25,477 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right. Yeah, they might, they might make those kind of maybe stupid impulse purchases at first …
00:20:31,308 [John Lanza]
[chuckles]
00:20:31,318 [Ashley LeBaron]
… but eventually they’ll realize that that was their money, and it’s gone, and now they can’t get other stuff, and yeah.
00:20:37,487 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:20:37,727 [Ashley LeBaron]
Those lessons will stick, and they’ll start to be more self-regulated.
00:20:42,108 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:20:42,227 [Ashley LeBaron]
I agree.
00:20:43,487 [John Lanza]
Now, I, I, and I, I was also interested, uh, I’m glad you brought up the experiential learning, ’cause, uh, like you said, there is, there’s so much on the discussion and the modeling, and what’s interesting about the experiential learning is there, there are even papers, um, where people have said, “Oh, you shouldn’t do an allowance.” Um, and, and, uh, when I’ve delved into that, it tends to be if it’s an undirected allowance or an unintentional allowance, in other words, just, you know, allowance …
00:21:10,308 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:21:10,318 [John Lanza]
… that’s just given. But, um …
00:21:12,467 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:21:12,788 [John Lanza]
… that doesn’t seem to be the case if there’s actually some intention to it. And I, uh, you, you talk about spending wisely, and I wanted to bring that up because we talk about, we, we basically call it spend smart. And, um …
00:21:26,428 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:21:26,467 [John Lanza]
… you know, sometimes, you know, there’s a, a, one school of thought might be, “Well, that’s just a semantic game,” and, you know, so someone else has a spend jar, and you have a spend smart jar. But I think it’s more important than that because, you know, spending wisely really is, is important, and spending smart is really important, and it does differ from family to family based on your values. I wanted to know if maybe … I, I know you touched on some of this in your research, or maybe you could comment on that a little bit.
00:21:54,947 [Ashley LeBaron]
Uh, yeah, I, I think there is a difference in just spending and spending wisely, and as parents, I think, um, I think parents can play a big role in helping kids learn what is smart spending. And in the, in the field, this would be called monitoring …
00:22:12,027 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:22:12,257 [Ashley LeBaron]
… where parents are kind of aware of how their kids are spending money, maybe not necessarily regulating it, but having, you know, conversations with them about it, helping them decide what their personal goals and values are, and helping them align their budget or their spending with those goals. Um, and so that would kind of be a combination approach, which, uh, we’re starting to find is kind of the best approach to financial parenting, is hopefully there’s discussion, m- positive modeling, and experiential learning going on.
00:22:48,197 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:22:48,548 [Ashley LeBaron]
And so if you, you know, if you have experiential learning, and you give kids that space to spend their own money, to learn from their mistakes, but then you’re right there next to them, not holding their hand, but, you know, talking through things with them, helping them realize, and kind of make corrections as needed, uh, yeah, I think that’s a really strong approach to doing it …
00:23:11,768 [John Lanza]
Mm
00:23:11,777 [Ashley LeBaron]
… and can help kids realize their own values and spend accordingly.
00:23:16,007 [John Lanza]
Uh, that’s terrific. Uh, one question that I, I think about with, uh, positive modeling, I know, [clears throat] I talk to a lot of parents who don’t feel like they’re positive models when it [chuckles] comes to …
00:23:28,007 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:23:28,018 [John Lanza]
… to dealing with money, and any thoughts on what is a way that, you know, parents can address this? ‘Cause I know I, I know that, uh, you can’t, you … Being quiet about it is really not the way to go. You really do need to have a conversation, but I know I’ve talked to a number of parents …
00:23:48,227 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:23:48,338 [John Lanza]
… who have some shame about whatever it might be, you know, poor just financial decisions that we’ve made or that, that we or they have made. But I ju- just what, you know, what, what is something … If someone said, said that to you, what might you, you know, suggest that they do?
00:24:06,032 [Ashley LeBaron]
Um, I, yeah, I’m not surprised by that at all. We found that, you know, again, and again, talking to people, is parents are worried that they’re not gonna be good enough financial educators, and I think that’s one of the reasons why parents, um, don’t really talk to their kids about money, kind of do finances behind closed doors, is they- yeah, they’re worried that they don’t know enough or they’ve- they’re not very good with their finances, and so it’s better to just do nothing, and that’s so false. Um, I think kids can learn, and the research shows that kids can learn a lot from both positive and even not so positive examples as parents, um, are open with them. Um, the research shows it’s just the most important thing is to just try [chuckles] to talk to kids about money and to be open with them. Just start somewhere, um, even if you’re not perfect. Um, in the interviews, um, you know, some, some participants reported, you know, that they- their parents were really good with money, and so they would watch them, um, and learn and kind of copy their habits. And then other participants would talk about how their parents weren’t that good with money, but the parents who were open about that and told, you know, their kids, “Well, we did this, and we wish we had done it differently,” the kids can learn from that, and it’s, it’s so much better for them to, to have it talked about openly than, um, for them to either just, you know, never hear about money and kind of go blindly or to s- you know, see a negative example and think that it’s the right way to go.
00:25:50,392 [Ashley LeBaron]
Um, so, and with, especially with families where maybe their income isn’t, um, as high or, um, you know, single-parent families, things like that, oftentimes parents want to shield the kids from financial stress or things like that. Um, and the reality is that
00:26:11,732 [Ashley LeBaron]
if, if, you know, if there’s struggles financially, the kids, the kids know about it, and, you know, the stress is there anyway. But, um, by not talking about it, it can actually make it worse, um, for the kids. And so by talking, being open, and letting the kids know that, “Yeah, this isn’t your responsibility, we’ll be okay, you know, we got this,” but by, by still talking about it, it can, it can help the kids work through it, give them a realistic idea about the financial world. Um, and it can even make them more understanding if you say no to, you know, when they ask for something or things like that, they can be more on board with, with the family. So there’s ob- basically all sorts of benefits for just being open with your kids, [chuckles] no matter what your situation is, and they can learn from… N- no matter what it is.
00:27:01,972 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that, [clears throat] that makes sense, and I, I can, you know, speak personally to that. With, with our kids, I, you know, they, they know [chuckles] uh, a number of the stupid decisions that I’ve made in the past.
00:27:13,432 [Ashley LeBaron]
[chuckles]
00:27:13,542 [John Lanza]
And, and, and I, and I, and I know how parents feel in terms of that …
00:27:18,812 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:27:19,452 [John Lanza]
… uh, uh, being unsure as to how to bring that up, but I think you’re- I think you just have to just bring it up, because they …
00:27:26,772 [Ashley LeBaron]
You have to.
00:27:27,652 [John Lanza]
Yeah. The kids don’t … They, they, you know, uh, maybe, maybe a, a very, very young kid, but, you know, doesn’t think you’re, uh, th- once they get a little bit older, they certainly know that you’re a flawed human being. They can see that with [chuckles] …
00:27:40,912 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right [chuckles]
00:27:42,122 [John Lanza]
… many of the decisions that you’re making on a daily basis.
00:27:45,092 [Ashley LeBaron]
[chuckles]
00:27:45,132 [John Lanza]
So it’s like, so why not share this? It’s, it is weird that societally, there is so much money sh- there’s so much, there’s so much baggage with our poor money decisions, much more so …
00:27:56,262 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:27:56,262 [John Lanza]
… than there are with our other decisions, you know?
00:27:59,392 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm, yeah
00:28:00,602 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:28:00,632 [Ashley LeBaron]
But if we want them to be better at, you know, more money-smart than we are, then, well, better, better try to help them along and be open with them.
00:28:11,032 [John Lanza]
Yeah. I think that, that, uh, that makes a lot of sense. Um, I was, uh … You note- this is, this is something that I, I, I, I saw in the paper that I, that I had to ask you, ’cause you note that parents might consider giving money, um, ’cause you, you said that the source doesn’t necessarily matter as long as they ha- and I think, uh, correct me if I’m wrong, so the source doesn’t necessarily matter …
00:28:34,072 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:28:34,081 [John Lanza]
… as long as they get some kind of experiential learning. So whether it’s, um, gifts, whether it’s an allowance, and one of the things you talk about is giving, uh, money for grades, for example, right? I think.
00:28:43,992 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:28:44,872 [John Lanza]
And I- the one thing I did want to ask you about that is, ’cause I, I, i- in, you know, Dan Pink’s book, Drive, um, which is based on …
00:28:54,322 [Ashley LeBaron]
Part of it, yeah.
00:28:54,921 [John Lanza]
Yeah. So it’s, it’s about motiva- you know, it’s, it’s based on motivational research, and he said that, for example, on the, on giving money for grades, that this can be demotivating. And, uh, and I …
00:29:06,382 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:29:06,382 [John Lanza]
… I’ve, uh, you know, based on that, I’ve kind of actively told, uh, talked to parents when they, when they do bring that up on any level, I d- I just think it’s a, it’s a poor idea. You know, and some of the credit unions that we talked, that we work with, they will offer that, you know, you get some kind of monetary, um, benefit for, uh, getting straight A’s. And, and the reason behind why this can be demotivating, and I, I, I’m, I’m probably simplifying it, but is that, you know, grades are something that you should be trying to achieve for the achievement’s sake, you know? And if you re …
00:29:38,632 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:29:38,642 [John Lanza]
… and if you remove the, the, the, um, the reward, w- then you might then, then you might lose the, the actual performance. And so that’s …
00:29:51,312 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm. Got it.
00:29:51,682 [John Lanza]
… that’s the danger. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.
00:29:56,152 [Ashley LeBaron]
I think that’s interesting. That also reminds me of, um, and I think you talk about this, too, in, in your book, is tying chores to allowance.
00:30:04,632 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:30:04,732 [Ashley LeBaron]
The, you know, the pros and cons, that people debate about that, too … and I, I think I agree with, with, yeah, with what you’re saying about grades. I agree with, you know, the argument people have about, um, if you pay kids for doing chores, then, um, you know, they’ll expect to get paid for just being a member of the family. You know, that’s just their duty to do that.
00:30:25,268 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:30:25,628 [Ashley LeBaron]
So I agree with these things. Um, I think the bottom line for me is I just- from the research, it just seems so important for kids to have their own money to practice handling, that for me … So I guess it’s not true to say it’s not important how they get it, but for me, it’s less important the exact nuances of an allowance, of getting money into their hands, as it is to just do something. Get money into their hands, get them practicing. Um, but, but I agree that, that, yeah, that there might be better ways to go about that.
00:31:04,188 [John Lanza]
I, I see your point. And, and you may have phrased it like that, I just- when I saw that, I wanted to ask you about it, just because I think it’s something that … It’s something I’ve grappled with, and I know it’s something that other parents …
00:31:15,478 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:31:15,478 [John Lanza]
… have grappled with. And, uh, and obviously, on the chores front, I, I won’t go any further into it here, ’cause I’ve dealt- we’ve talked a lot about it on the podcast, um …
00:31:24,058 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:31:24,608 [John Lanza]
… the, the, the, the decoupling of chores and allowance. And again, that gets back to the intentionality of what you’re doing. So as long as, you know, if you have …
00:31:32,768 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:31:32,778 [John Lanza]
… an allowance that there is, there, there, there is a reason for it, and the reason is that you’re teaching your kids to become money-smart, and you’re- you want them to learn core money-smart skills, and learn to become responsible for- with money, and ultimately, you just treat it as a tool, those are … And as long as that intention is in place, then it makes sense. Obviously, a rudderless allowance, that’s, uh, not gonna do, not gonna do a lot for a kid. Although, you know, that, that …
00:31:57,288 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:31:57,538 [John Lanza]
… it’s possible that may be better than nothing. Um, but …
00:32:00,788 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:32:01,148 [John Lanza]
… but it is, but, you know, a purposeful allowance can be very effective. And, and, and the fact that you’ve highlighted the importance of experiential learning is something that I wanted our audience to hear, because that way, there’s, there’s some, uh, research- it’s rooted in research, um, that suggests that this could be something that can be very beneficial to kids, which is great.
00:32:24,508 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah, um, I agree. Also, um, this was … It came from a, again, a qualitative study where we conducted interviews, and so I would be interested in, um, you know, conducting or seeing others conduct a quantitative study where we could actually see, you know, a statistical link between different, um, methods of allowance giving, you know, whether that be through grades or chores or whatever, and seeing if, if how that’s done, um, predicts various outcomes. But, um, again, this, this qualitative study, we just are going off of the interviewers …
00:33:03,508 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:33:03,578 [Ashley LeBaron]
… or the interviewees’ own experiences, so yeah.
00:33:07,668 [John Lanza]
And you, and you very, um, clearly addressed the limitations of what the qualitative study can do, and I think that’s, that’s, that’s why it’s really good to read these studies and not just the pap …
00:33:18,988 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm, mm
00:33:18,998 [John Lanza]
… not just the articles that talk about the studies, because …
00:33:22,348 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:33:23,128 [John Lanza]
[chuckles] Yeah. When you just read the … And, and, and it’s, you know, there’s only so much you can read, and, you know, there’s only so much time we all have to read. But when you do delve in, you realize that you have made a very, very- made it very clear that there are limitations. You know, this is from a group of, you know, a, a group of people that are all college-educated, you know, and that, that’s …
00:33:42,408 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:33:42,688 [John Lanza]
… that’s going to, that’s going to have a, a, an effect on the results that you’re seeing. So, um, yeah …
00:33:49,998 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:33:49,998 [John Lanza]
… and that’s, that’s …
00:33:50,708 [Ashley LeBaron]
Couldn’t agree more.
00:33:51,188 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I think the, uh, I, I would love to see a [chuckles] quantitative study on that too, because, uh, you know, you, you ultimately, when you’re making recommendations to folks, you want to be sure that, uh, you have as much kind of basis in research as, as possible, so.
00:34:06,928 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right. But the, you know, there’s always gonna be pros and cons with whatever, uh, you know, quantitative, qualitative. The great thing about this qualitative one, though, is the- one of the purposes of qualitative research is to figure out what questions you should be asking in quantitative research. And so if we hadn’t have done this study, we wouldn’t have even been thinking and asking people about their experiential learning. So …
00:34:29,947 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:34:30,248 [Ashley LeBaron]
… that’s a really fun outcome.
00:34:32,008 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that is true. And I, and I will- I’ll put that in the show notes, ’cause I hope people will read the paper, because it- you really do a nice job of walking through that epiphany …
00:34:42,168 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:34:42,378 [John Lanza]
… and realizing that, “Oh, this is really what we’re looking at.” Like, it’s a, it’s a real good insight into how research kind of can start, and then you can kind of turn and realize, “Oh, this is really what we need to be looking at.”
00:34:54,468 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:34:54,728 [John Lanza]
And, uh, that’s, uh, it’s great. So we’ll, we’ll make sure that, that- any of, any of this important stuff is, uh, included in the, uh, in the, um, show notes as well.
00:35:05,028 [Ashley LeBaron]
Great
00:35:05,268 [John Lanza]
Um, you, you have a great quote, uh, in your paper that you finish off with Will Durant, um, [clears throat] where you say, “We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” And, uh, in the context of your work, this reminded me of an Aristotle quote that I have, which is, “In short, the habits…” Well, you know, I never know if stuff is actually Aristotle’s quote or if it’s just …
00:35:26,618 [Ashley LeBaron]
[laughs]
00:35:26,618 [John Lanza]
… attributed to him. [chuckles]
00:35:28,138 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah, I don’t know either. [chuckles]
00:35:30,008 [John Lanza]
So, “In short, the habits we form from childhood make no small difference; rather, they make all the difference.” And …
00:35:37,348 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:35:37,728 [John Lanza]
… I wanted to get any thoughts that … You know, I, I k- I know you are focusing on, on the research, and, you know, you’re not necessarily, um, advising parents on these things. But are there any kind of, like, top habits that kids- that you think kids should learn about money?
00:35:56,508 [Ashley LeBaron]
Uh, so in our, in our qualitative project, the, the main themes that came out, we were looking for whats and hows of family financial socialization. And so the hows that we found were … you know, the, the, the discussion, the modeling, and the experiential learning, but we also looked at, at the what’s, which is I think what you’re asking about. And what we found, um, were important what’s or kind of, you know, financial principles that, uh, were being passed down were, um,
00:36:29,056 [Ashley LeBaron]
to work hard. And so
00:36:33,216 [Ashley LeBaron]
which, you know, doesn’t necessarily- at first, it doesn’t seem to be tied to finances, but of course, it is. Working hard, and …
00:36:40,106 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:36:40,106 [Ashley LeBaron]
… again, we found there were, there were multiple ways that that could be taught, so whether that’s through a focus on, you know, excellence in school, or chores, or getting a job, um, but teaching kids to work hard so that they have that habit, um, down. And then making kids aware of their own values and goals is kind of at the heart of money decisions, and the intentionality piece of finances is, I just think,
00:37:12,536 [Ashley LeBaron]
so important. I think too many of us go about our lives living unintentionally in lots of ways, including financially. Too many budgets are not reflective of what people actually value in life. Um, so I think helping kids first recognize and decide their own values, and then matching their money decisions to those values, um, that’s the second one. Third one would be smart spending, um, according to their values, and then the fourth would be giving. I think giving …
00:37:46,116 [John Lanza]
Hmm
00:37:46,256 [Ashley LeBaron]
… being generous with money, uh, is very important to me personally, but also in the research. Um, it’s
00:37:54,636 [Ashley LeBaron]
we’re starting to research more on giving and the benefits of being generous to givers and receivers, um, is … Yeah, those would be the four, the four areas that I would just, as a parent, want to make sure that I was hitting on.
00:38:11,676 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Well, that- the giving is a, is a good point because there’s, uh, there’s now seems to be a pretty fair amount of research about the importance of gratitude in general, not just the …
00:38:21,426 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:38:21,426 [John Lanza]
… just giving, but just have- having that gratitude is something that really, um, can help kind of center you and really, um, make your life that much … Just sitting back and realizing how good you have it. [laughs]
00:38:35,766 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right
00:38:35,776 [John Lanza]
Even when you think it’s not so good, um, it- we all have, um, a lot more, um, than we may actually know.
00:38:44,716 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right. Most people …
00:38:45,856 [John Lanza]
Right
00:38:45,866 [Ashley LeBaron]
… if you’re living in the United States, chances are you’re …
00:38:49,296 [John Lanza]
Right
00:38:49,305 [Ashley LeBaron]
… very well off. Yeah.
00:38:51,386 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:38:51,395 [Ashley LeBaron]
And so yeah, money, I don’t know, to some people, I think money is kind of a, a dirty topic.
00:38:56,536 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:38:56,875 [Ashley LeBaron]
And it just definitely doesn’t have to be if it’s values-driven and, um, and about, you know, giving and just having the best life that you can. I think it’s just a very positive thing.
00:39:11,236 [John Lanza]
Well, I think that’s what’s great about your research, is I wa- and, and wanna see more of your research because it is de- [laughs] is cleaning up the money conversation, because …
00:39:22,926 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:39:23,256 [John Lanza]
… you’re right. It’s, it’s just the, the taboo and, and people feeling like, you know … Because there’s so much weight that we carry, uh, with our- with the money, whether it’s the, you know, uh, and some of it, we just don’t even know. Like, we, we may be …
00:39:37,716 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:39:37,726 [John Lanza]
… reacting to someone who has money, and it’s just based …
00:39:40,386 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm
00:39:40,386 [John Lanza]
… on a conversation that we had with our parents, because they were railing about someone about money, and we just hadn’t thought about it, or whatever it might be.
00:39:47,696 [Ashley LeBaron]
Mm-hmm
00:39:48,496 [John Lanza]
You know, it’s good, and I, I think one of the, uh, one of the big benefits that, that I’ve discovered in, in talking to m- to my kids about money, and I’ve seen this with other parents with their kids, is if you’re- if you just take some time to reflect, it’s a good way for … It’s a good way for you to address any of those issues, and it’s important, too, becau- to do that, because, like you said, you really- if, if you’re not the one talking to your kids about money, someone’s gonna be talking to them, and that someone might not even be …
00:40:16,226 [Ashley LeBaron]
Exactly
00:40:16,226 [John Lanza]
… be a human being. It might be entities, you know, in the form of, you know, advertising, television shows.
00:40:21,516 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right, people who want their money. [laughs] Yeah.
00:40:24,725 [John Lanza]
Yes, right. [laughs]
00:40:25,386 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yeah
00:40:25,395 [John Lanza]
Exactly. People who are trying to extract money from them.
00:40:28,316 [Ashley LeBaron]
Right [laughs]
00:40:28,796 [John Lanza]
And yeah, so, so it’s, uh, that just gets to your point, which is that, you know, you’ve gotta … You do have to figure out a way to be intentional about it, and, um, I think that’s great.
00:40:41,796 [John Lanza]
Okay, so Ashley, are you ready for our, uh, fast and fun round?
00:40:47,196 [Ashley LeBaron]
Sure. Bring it on.
00:40:48,725 [John Lanza]
Okay, so these, these, [laughs] so these are questions I like to ask of, uh, all my guests, and, uh, I always get some interesting answers with this. And, uh, I, there’s still a whole boatload of other questions that [laughs] I wanna ask you …
00:41:03,446 [Ashley LeBaron]
[laughs]
00:41:03,446 [John Lanza]
… with regards to your research, but, um, my mind doesn’t work fast enough sometimes, so I’ll have to kind of sort through that all, and then maybe I can have you back on and, and, uh, and address some of those. And I’m sure you’re gonna have plenty more research to come, too, that we can, uh, that we can talk about.
00:41:18,616 [Ashley LeBaron]
Sounds great.
00:41:19,086 [John Lanza]
So [inhales] okay, so here we go. First question: What does the term money empowered mean to you?
00:41:27,216 [Ashley LeBaron]
Hmm. To be money empowered, I would say that that means that you have been equipped with the knowledge, the skills, the habits to make smart money decisions and be independent financially.
00:41:42,716 [John Lanza]
Very nice. That works. Okay, what is the best lesson that you learned from your parents about money?
00:41:52,796 [Ashley LeBaron]
I would say the best lesson I learned would be to be generous, to be giving, grateful, like we talked about. Um, I remember some- a few times growing up, just every once in a while, I guess maybe [chuckles] when our parents were feeling like we weren’t grateful enough, or we were too entitled …
00:42:07,826 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:42:07,826 [Ashley LeBaron]
… or something, I don’t know, they would, uh … take us over to, um, the trailer park in the, you know, neighboring city.
00:42:15,988 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:42:16,228 [Ashley LeBaron]
Or, um, we would do a service project for neighbors who we knew were kind of struggling, [lips smack] and, uh … or, you know, we would donate to our religious organization or to a charity. Um, you know, just try to- my parents were good about making sure that we knew, um, how well off we were, to be grateful for that, and then to be looking out for others who, um, could use a boost.
00:42:42,187 [John Lanza]
[lips smack] That’s great. Sounds like you have some great parents. [laughs]
00:42:46,748 [Ashley LeBaron]
They’re pretty awesome. I like them. [laughs]
00:42:49,548 [John Lanza]
[laughs] That’s cool. If you could transmit a message that everyone would see, whether it’s by billboard or on, uh, up in the sky, what would that message say?
00:43:05,587 [Ashley LeBaron]
Hmm, good question. I guess, related to what we were talking about earlier, live intentionally and be kind.
00:43:16,147 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:43:16,417 [Ashley LeBaron]
I think if people are doing those two things, they’re gonna be happy, and at the end of their life, they won’t have as many regrets.
00:43:24,667 [John Lanza]
[lips smack] I love it. That’s good. And what is the one parenting or money smarts book, and really, this could be any book, too, but, uh, that you go back to or gift the most often?
00:43:39,607 [Ashley LeBaron]
[lips smack] I … Okay, I have … So as you said at the beginning, I research financial socialization and couple finance, and I have …
00:43:48,048 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:43:48,058 [Ashley LeBaron]
… a favorite book from each. My favorite couple finance book, um, is called For Love and Money. It’s by, um, Dr. Bernard Pr- Poduska, um, P-O-D-U-S-K-A. It’s kind of dated now, but it’s just very … I think it just has simple principles in it that if couples
00:44:10,707 [Ashley LeBaron]
c- take his advice, that they will, you know, do well financially and, um, relationally. Um, so I like that book. And
00:44:21,707 [Ashley LeBaron]
for parenting, I like, um … What’s it called? The Opposite of Spoiled. I like that one.
00:44:29,508 [John Lanza]
Oh, I love that book.
00:44:29,658 [Ashley LeBaron]
It, it’s, uh, gotten me thinking about, um, some good financial parenting questions.
00:44:34,948 [John Lanza]
That’s, uh, Ron Lieber.
00:44:36,808 [Ashley LeBaron]
Yep
00:44:37,308 [John Lanza]
[lips smack] And that is a terrific book. I will, uh, second that. So great call, and I will include those in the showmo- show notes as well. And, uh, f- finally, Ashley, um, how can people find you, or, or how would you like them to find you on the web, to the extent that you want them to find [chuckles] you on the web?
00:44:57,087 [Ashley LeBaron]
[laughs]
00:44:57,368 [John Lanza]
Where’s, where’s the best place? [laughs]
00:45:00,127 [Ashley LeBaron]
Um, that’s a good question. I have a Google Scholar profile. Um, I don’t know if anyone actually looks at Google Scholar …
00:45:07,448 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:45:07,457 [Ashley LeBaron]
… besides academics. We’re all way too obsessed …
00:45:11,198 [John Lanza]
I was there. [laughs]
00:45:11,198 [Ashley LeBaron]
… with it. You were there, [chuckles] okay.
00:45:13,548 [John Lanza]
Yes
00:45:13,808 [Ashley LeBaron]
So yeah, if people, uh, go to scholar.google.com and search Ashley LeBaron, my, um, publications should come up there. Um, or, um, if they google the University of Arizona, Ashley LeBaron, um, my vita should be available there and a short bio that I think that’s where you got information from.
00:45:35,268 [John Lanza]
Okay, and I will, uh … Yeah, it is, and I’ll, I’ll include those in the show notes. Is there any action that you’d like people to take that would be helpful at all for you?
00:45:45,207 [Ashley LeBaron]
Um, I guess if people have, um, further questions or, um, any personal stories, they, um, are welcome to email me. I love hearing from, uh, from real people, real parents, real families. I’m kind of locked away in my tower too often.
00:45:59,698 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:45:59,707 [Ashley LeBaron]
So yeah, people are welcome to email me. That’d be great. Um …
00:46:03,067 [John Lanza]
Sure
00:46:03,087 [Ashley LeBaron]
… [email protected].
00:46:05,788 [John Lanza]
Okay, great. Well, this has been really fun, Ashley, for me. I, I love talking to people like yourself who just are … just have done so much work to help kind of provide the, the, the really the, the backbone of why, why teaching kids about money is so important and why doing it early matters. And, uh, I, I love, I love everything we talked about, the experiential learning, and, uh, I hopefully, uh, can get you back on the podcast at some point, too.
00:46:38,388 [Ashley LeBaron]
Thank you. It’s been so fun. I’d love to, love to come back. It’s been great.
00:46:42,428 [John Lanza]
Sounds good. Thanks, Ashley. [upbeat music]
00:46:45,988 [John Lanza]
I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Art of Allowance Podcast. Please subscribe to our show to help me have more conversations with parents and get more ideas to help us all raise money-smart, money empowered kids. Of course, please consult with a financial or investment professional before engaging in any decisions that might affect your own financial well-being, and find out more about our movement at theartofallowance.com. You can download a sample or get a copy of my new book, The Art of Allowance, and use the checkout code podcast to spend smart and save yourself a few bucks. The book is also available on Amazon. You might want to check out The Money Mammals, our program to get your kids excited about money smarts when they’re young. And until next time, I wish you and your family well on your own journey to money empowerment. Thanks for listening!
00:47:43,228 [John Lanza]
[upbeat music]