AOA 084: Kids Can Spend Smarter — With Karen Holland

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“Anybody can ask questions about money. Anybody can get and use financial information to help shape their future. Think about how powerful an experience that is. Discovering that you have agency at that young an age.”

— Karen Holland

In this Art of Allowance Podcast episode, host John Lanza speaks with guest Karen Holland about her nonprofit, GIFTING SENSE®, and its core component, the DIMS – DOES IT MAKE SENSE?® SCORE Calculator. They discuss the importance of teaching kids mindful spending habits, particularly during middle school–a critical time for developing financial literacy. Karen also shares insights on how the DIMS SCORE® helps children make informed purchasing decisions, reduces family discord over money and encourages reflection on spending choices. Her conversation with John emphasizes the need for experiential learning and the role of parents in guiding their kids towards better money management practices.

Karen Holland is an economist, a mom and the founder of the nonprofit GIFTING SENSE®. Karen holds a master’s degree in economic history and an honors bachelor’s degree in economics. She has been named a Next Gen Personal Finance Distinguished Educator and believes that early success with thinking before buying primes kids to seek out the financial knowledge they’ll need later, building confident, financially literate citizens for life.

Visit our YouTube channel for selected snippets from this and other podcast episodes.

Links (From the Show)

Show Notes (Find what’s most interesting to you!)

  • Karen’s money-smart origin story [2:50]
  • Kids as optimization machines [5:08]
  • Why the DIMS SCORE® is a win-win-win-win [6:34]
  • Middle school is a developmental sweet spot for financial literacy. [9:19]
  • Readiness + plasticity = lasting impact [11:06]
  • Does the DIMS SCORE® enable kids to spend? [13:27]
  • Combating gifting privilege [17:22]
  • How the DIMS SCORE® improves family harmony [19:56]
  • Extending an item’s use through the DIMS SCORE® [23:26]
  • Next year’s World Cup is a lesson in planning and patience for kids. [25:18]
  • A deep dive on the Diderot Effect [27:58]
  • Bridging present and future with the DIMS SCORE® [29:21]
  • Youth debit cards and the DIMS SCORE® [31:24]
  • The importance of beginning smart money habits early [33:55]
  • The second-best time is now! [36:10]
  • Discovering financial agency [38:24]
  • The process of reflecting on purchases [39:31]
  • Friction points as opportunities [43:27]
  • Kids often confuse payment methods with how they’re funded. [45:32]
  • It’s all about balance: the digital money versus cash debate. [46:31]
  • Introducing artificial friction points [48:22]
  • Karen addresses the gambling surge. [49:40]
  • Karen’s favorite Christmas gift [55:32]
  • Living in abundance or with scarcity doesn’t determine your financial outcome. [57:27]
  • Thinking before buying and brushing your teeth: permanently improving well-being. [1:03:42]
  • Doing what’s right versus doing what you can afford [1:07:07]
  • On travel sports and family dynamics [1:07:32]
  • A moderation mantra [1:08:17]
  • “Think before you buy.” [1:09:41]
  • Karen’s copious money-smart book recommendations [1:10:16]
  • Connecting with Karen [1:13:39]

Click here for the full transcript.

If you liked this episode …

Want to take a deep dive into mindful spending? Will Rainey, the author of Grandpa’s Fortune Fables, offers a lesson on the Diderot Effect at the 33:27 mark of his episode. And this clip, in which he shares the value of enjoying occasional luxurious experiences instead of living a luxurious lifestyle, is also worth streaming with your kids.

Looking for more strategies for navigating gift giving with your family? Parenting consultant Barbara Coloroso addresses parent and grandparent privilege during her conversation with John. Plus her 4-part formula for mistakes–including monetary ones–informs Karen’s “Identify / Own / Fix” framework.

Curious about the concept of “toxic stress” that Karen and John mention during their conversation? Child psychology researcher Chuck Kalish describes this notion and the dangers it poses to the young brain during his appearance on The Art of Allowance Podcast. Tune in at 15:56 for his explanation and analysis.

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Full Transcript

This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 84, featuring host John Lanza and guest Karen Holland.

[00:00:00] John Lanza: Hello, and welcome to episode 84 of The Art of Allowance Podcast. I’m your host, John Lanza.

[00:00:09] Karen Holland: The problem is not a lack of information. There is more amazing information than ever before in the history of the planet. More books, programs, apps, you name it. And it’s more democratically accessible thanks to the World Wide Web, right? It’s never been easier to get this great information, and yet we have, like, a not insignificant number of people not availing themselves to employer-sponsored savings programs. Like, all of these things. So why, why is that? Because they don’t believe that information is for them. They don’t believe they can use that information to make their life better. We want to give school-aged children a firsthand experience that it’s unequivocal. Anybody can ask questions about money. Anybody can get and use financial information to help shape their future. That, think about how powerful an experience that is, discovering that you have agency at that young an age.

[00:01:03] John Lanza: [Music]

[00:01:08] John Lanza: In this episode, I speak with my friend and guest, Karen Holland, about her nonprofit, Gifting Sense, and its core component, the DIMS, D-I-M-S, or Does It Make Sense Score Calculator. We discuss the importance of teaching kids mindful spending habits, particularly during middle school, a critical time for developing financial literacy. Karen also shares insights on how the DIMS Score helps children make informed purchasing decisions. It reduces family discord over money and encourages reflection on spending choices. Our discussion emphasizes the need for experiential learning and the role of parents in guiding their kids toward better money management practices. Karen Holland is an economist, a mom, and the founder of the nonprofit Gifting Sense. Karen holds a master’s degree in economic history and an honors bachelor’s degree in economics. Karen has been named a Next Gen Personal Finance Distinguished Educator, say that five times fast, and she believes that early success with thinking before buying primes kids to seek out the financial knowledge they’ll need later to become confident, financially literate citizens for life. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Karen Holland.

[00:02:40] Karen Holland: [Music]

[00:02:41] John Lanza: Today, I am talking with Karen Holland. Welcome, Karen.

[00:02:46] Karen Holland: Hi, John.

[00:02:48] John Lanza: Well, it’s great to have you on. Uh, before we begin with the questions that I have prepared for you, could you please tell us a little bit about yourself and what led you to create this great program, Gifting Sense, and your DIMS, D-I-M-S, or Does It Make Sense Score?

[00:03:05] Karen Holland: The origin story. Um, well, I’m- I’m a

[00:03:12] Karen Holland: person in the third act of life. I- I caution all my friends, I’m not sure we can employ the term “middle-aged” anymore. I don’t know any 120-year-olds. I don’t know about you, [laughs] but I- I don’t have any friends that are 120. And I was a sovereign risk analyst for Canada’s largest bank, and I’m a mom, and I’m one of three girls, and I’ve been married 35 years. And, um,

[00:03:37] Karen Holland: when my sisters and I were growing up, our mother, who was a kindergarten teacher, gave us a monthly allowance starting in middle school. And, uh, the very first time she asked us to anticipate all the money that we would need to buy what we needed for back to school, beginning of grade eight. And so, you know, we really went to town and we came up with what we thought was an enormously comprehensive list, and we were shocked when she immediately agreed. Of course, she had a lot more life experience than we did, and she knew that we’d woefully underestimated what would be required to sustain ourselves on a monthly basis, and we started getting our allowance once a month starting in September of grade eight. And the first couple of months, I blew it. Uh, I remember I bought a pair of burgundy penny loafers, and then I, uh… I’m gonna date myself here. I could not buy Gee Your Hair Smells Terrific Shampoo or Bonne Bell Lip Smackers or any of the things that, um, we eighth-grade girls were interested in. And, uh, I think back, it would have been so easy for my mother to have, you know, acquiesced and maybe given me another $5, but she didn’t do it. And so guess what? I got really good at making trade-offs and making sure that I didn’t have that very unpleasant experience of, uh, my social life being crowded out by lifestyle purchases, for lack of a better description.

[00:05:07] John Lanza: Well, that is a testament to your mom, the- the importance of this holding your ground, and we talk about this a lot. You know, it’s so… ‘Cause it, especially at the beginning of any program, it’s really hard. You know, for… I mean, you guys weren’t probably… You’re past tantrum stage, but, you know, for… If you’re starting an allowance younger, that’s gonna be the issue. The kids are gonna throw a tantrum. But all you have to do is get through one or two tantrums, and then the kids get it. They’re like, “Okay, well, I guess- I guess I need to figure out how to start saving money if I want something that’s-“

[00:05:37] Karen Holland: You know, that-

[00:05:37] John Lanza: “…beyond what I have.”

[00:05:38] Karen Holland: That reminds me, John, of a- of a parenting adage that I have shared many times over, and it may in fact be from Barbara Coloroso’s kids are worth it!, which is, “Kids do what works.” So if having a tantrum works, they’re gonna have tantrums, but if having a tantrum doesn’t work, that- that makes quick work of the tantrums, right? Because they’re efficient.

[00:05:59] John Lanza: Yeah. [laughs]

[00:05:59] Karen Holland: They’re efficient optimization machines. They do what works.

[00:06:03] John Lanza: … optimization machines is dead on. I think you’re right. Uh, Barbara Coloroso, who I recently interviewed and we were talking about beforehand, who is one of the OGs of parenting, um, she’s one of those people… It’s one of those books that I read and I immediately smacked my head and said, “I wish I had read this earlier, it’s so good. There’s so much great stuff in here.” And, uh, I’m glad you referenced her, and, uh, I think, I think you’re right. I think she talks about exactly that thing because they are optimization machines. So I wanna ask you here, um, your Does It Make Sense Score, which is like a core part of Gifting Sense, right? It’s, it’s, it’s, kids go through this process of, uh, some item that they wanna buy and then they get this score. What I really like about it is that it goes so hand in hand with allowance and what we were just talking about, which is that… Uh, ’cause I’ve heard you say this before, like sometimes parents worry that they’re gonna print out or have a digital copy of this DIMS Score, they’re gonna wave it around and say, “Listen, it makes sense.” And the parents are gonna think, “Oh, what can I do if it makes sense and I don’t necessarily want them to have it, or I don’t wanna pay for that?” This is why they have an allowance, is now it makes sense, but only if they have the means to pay for it, right? And I love that idea. It’s not up to the parent to fund the purchase, just like your mom was saying, it is up to the kid. So, it makes sense within context, correct?

[00:07:29] Karen Holland: It’s all about context. Context transforms every conversation. And, and what we call the DIMS score calculator is a mindful spending tool, it’s a permissionless mindful spending tool, so there’s no registration or pay wall required to use it. And it just encourages kids to get into the habit of asking and answering simple questions about typical purchases before they spend their money or anyone else’s. And what that does is very naturally, organically, quickly reveal to young people that anyone can get and use information, financial information, to make their life better, which for a young person feels like avoiding disappointment, reducing waste, improving family harmony. I mean, there are lots of family arguments about money, but no one enjoys them. And then it even helps protect the planet because, of course, mindful spending, thinking before buying, is the easiest way to be a planet protector. When you only buy what you’re gonna actually use and appreciate, you automatically lower your carbon footprint and the number of items that you put into a landfill in your lifetime. So we, we call it a win, win, win, win.

[00:08:38] John Lanza: Yeah. I mean, I, I have to say, this is definitely a tool if you’re a parent out there, because like Karen said, it’s open to… for anybody to use. Uh, I highly recommend you going to the site and playing around with it because it’s just very useful. I mean, it’s… And it’s, it… What I l- love about this, why, why I was excited about the conversation is, it is such a natural fit to what we talk about with, you know, the… The Money Mammals who have Share and Save and Spend Smart, this is the next stage and Spend Smart. I mean, I wrote a book about spending smart, but this, you’re getting at the experiential part of it, which is [laughs] it’s all about the experiential part, and I think it’s great. So, I wanna ask you, though, um, because we, you know, we, we began with kind of younger kids, right? And so you focus on middle school. Tell us why you decided to focus on middle school.

[00:09:30] Karen Holland: Okay. Well, the short answer is, is, in all honesty, because that’s when, that’s when Mom started to teach us these lessons. And, um, then maybe, maybe a, a little piece that’s missing from the origin story is that I didn’t realize that everybody wasn’t taught mindful spending until I became a parent myself. And then, you know, it’s sort of this battle cry at large of all parents that kids don’t understand the value of a dollar, but, you know, instincts come from near misses. We don’t often let kids experience near misses when it comes to spending, and then we’re sort of flummoxed and we think, “Geez, what’s wrong with these kids? They don’t have any instincts.” So I knew from my own experience, both in childhood and then as a parent, because, of course, I mean, we parent one of two ways. We either like how we were parented and we mimic that, or we don’t and we move away from it, but I had a very nice childhood, so I was just doing the same thing, um, with my son and my nephew. And I knew that applying a small amount of consistent thinking to making, uh, consumer decisions was really helpful, not just to the kids, but also to the parents. It really cut down on any of this, this discord. So, um, the short answer is, why middle school? It’s because that’s when mom started with us.

[00:10:48] John Lanza: Okay.

[00:10:48] Karen Holland: And unfortunately, my, my mother passed when she was quite young, certainly before I became a mother, so I haven’t had the opportunity to have this conversation with her, but she was a, a kindergarten teacher. And so I suspect that she knew that middle school was this developmental sweet spot. And one thing that I’ve learned over the 12 years I’ve been doing this is this is very simple equation, which is readiness plus plasticity equals lasting impact.

[00:11:18] John Lanza: Okay. Go deeper on that. Explain.

[00:11:20] Karen Holland: Okay, I will. Now, I, I do wanna put out the caveat, I am no sort of brain expert.

[00:11:25] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:11:25] Karen Holland: I’m a retired sovereign risk analyst.

[00:11:27] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:11:27] Karen Holland: But I’m, I am so interested in solving this challenge of financial illiteracy. I mean, you and I have had this conversation. This is a solvable problem. Give me one of those, right? We are awash in problems that really, what can, what can private citizens do anything to help resolve? But this one, John, we can solve this one. So I will go deep in, but I’m not a brain expert.

[00:11:51] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:51] Karen Holland: So, it turns out, um, infancy is, of course, the most intense period of brain activity and growth, but did you know that early adolescence is the second most intense period? So what happens is we create all these, uh, synaptic connections, and then somewhere between 10 and 14, we start to prune those. The ones that aren’t being used regularly, they fall away. And so if you will, we’re sort of concentrating our brain power, and that allows us to understand consequences, make connections, understand the consequence of our behavior.

[00:12:27] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:27] Karen Holland: It’s also when the, the prefrontal cortex is under construction, so-

[00:12:31] John Lanza: Mm-hmm

[00:12:32] Karen Holland: … that’s, again, where cause and effect takes hold and, uh, executive functioning. We’re, uh, very receptive to rewards, and we’re very socially and emotionally aware during early adolescence, 10 to 14 years of age, or middle school. So all of this is incredibly fertile soil for introducing the habits of pausing, gathering information, and reflecting before you make a decision. And when we embed those lessons in a, uh,

[00:13:04] Karen Holland: educational, social context like school, it gives the desired behaviors status and stickiness. I mean, who doesn’t want to be known as a smart spender? Who doesn’t want to be known as good with money? So middle school is this developmental sweet spot. It’s really purpose-built for what we do at Gifting Sense.

[00:13:26] John Lanza: Okay, so you just said that in middle s- so the… But the number one thing that I know about having raised kids who’ve gone through middle school, you have two, is that number one, they just wanna fit in, right? So, um, you say everybody would want to be, uh, known as someone who’s spending smart unless… Is, is that tr- ’cause I’m gonna push back-

[00:13:48] Karen Holland: Okay

[00:13:48] John Lanza: … if they’re around a cohort of people that are not spending smart. So how do you empower them when they, when number one, they wanna fit in, and then number two, they might wanna be known as the one who’s spending smart. Do, you know, d- does that make sense, what I’m saying?

[00:14:03] Karen Holland: Uh, I, I think I know where you’re going, so I’ll share that we begin every workshop, we poll the class and we ask them if anyone there has ever received a holiday or a birthday gift and it wasn’t quite what they were hoping for. And of course, you know the answer, right? 93% of students in the last academic year answered yes to that question.

[00:14:25] John Lanza: Yep.

[00:14:26] Karen Holland: So then we go through the most typical responses that we’ve received over the last decade. I mean, I feel like I should do a public service announcement and say, “Everybody gets socks and pajamas, and it does not mean that your parents don’t care about you.” So what we love about that exercise, and, uh, sometimes we use a learning management system called Nearpod so we can poll the kids anonymously and then share the results in front of the whole class in a pie chart-

[00:14:50] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:14:50] Karen Holland: … it really normalizes that money is scarce for many families and finite for all.

[00:14:57] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:14:57] Karen Holland: And then most of the time, kids are super jazzed about the workshop because they’re instructed to come to class with a possible purchase in mind. So you’re right. Most kids this age are, they’re, they’re jonesing for something, right?

[00:15:10] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:15:10] Karen Holland: So how often do you get to work on a problem that matters to you in school, which is, you know, should I buy this item or experience? Not very often. So we- we’ve sorta got a hook in early.

[00:15:20] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:15:20] Karen Holland: But of course there are times when they’re just tacitly moving through the Does It Make Sense Score Calculator at the behest of a, of a teacher, or if it’s at home, a parent.

[00:15:30] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:15:32] Karen Holland: Here’s what happens. The minute they see that shareable summary, what we call the DIMS Score report, which organizes all the information about a possible purchase in a way that the vast majority of parents are open to receiving, kids are like everybody else, they don’t necessarily know what the truth is, but they know it when they see it or hear it. And they go, “Now wait a minute, that could help me.”

[00:15:52] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:15:53] Karen Holland: “This is something, like these are questions that my parents have asked me before. This helps me look like I’ve done my homework, that I’ve really thought about it.” Of course, what they don’t necessarily understand out of the gates is it also results, that process results in fewer better quality requests to spend. Because you, you answer all the questions and you’re like, “Oh, jeez, I don’t know, orange linen bell bottom pants. How often can I really wear those? Maybe I’m gonna hold off.” Right?

[00:16:19] John Lanza: Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:20] Karen Holland: Or in the case of, you know, like Super Bowl, you know, every January, kids are calculating the does-it-make-sense score for Super Bowl tickets. They have zero idea that this is a thousands of dollars proposition. The minute they discover that, they want to abandon ship. So, you know, sort of the hard cost part, if you will, is at the front end. And half the time they’re like, “Oh, wait a minute. This, there’s no way this is gonna happen.” And we’re like, “No, no, no, just keep going ’cause this is a construct for thinking and you can use this model for any purchase,” right? It’s, again, it’s just applying a small amount of consistent thinking to this problem, should I buy or ask for this item or experience? So we, we do have parents and educators who are sometimes concerned that we’re enabling kids to ask for things that, you know, their parents can’t afford or that are, you know, really unrealistic or out of the realm of possibilities. And I’m here to tell you, I mean, I’m now confident, I’ve been doing it for so long, that is just not what happens.

[00:17:13] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:17:13] Karen Holland: Kids are super aware of their family situation, and they, that’s really not what happens. And the other thing that, that we do is we encourage them to use that DIMS Score report to crowdfund the purchase of one larger, more meaningful gift amongst extended family members, right? I mean, particularly for out of town, you know, aunts and uncles and grandparents who maybe aren’t part of the day-to-day life of kids, it’s really hard for them to know what’s gonna hit the mark. And, you know, so they buy them hoodies they don’t wanna wear or books they won’t read. I mean, I cannot tell you how many people have received pierced earrings and they don’t have pierced ears. And you just, you can’t put lipstick on that, John. I mean, it’s just, nobody feels heard when they get pierced earrings and they don’t have pierced ears, right? It’s just, you can’t win.

[00:18:01] John Lanza: Right.

[00:18:02] Karen Holland: So this is a process that lets parents graciously, politely answer the question, “What would John…”… Lisa like for a birthday or a holiday gift, and we say to the kids they can, they can text that report, they can print out a hard copy. We encourage them to send it with a handwritten note, or if they email it, to compose a letter to go with the email that says, “Look, I know you asked Mom and Dad what I would like. I know this is a, this is a big ticket item, hockey skates, a baseball bat, a dance costume.” Apparently these dance costumes, you know, I don’t, I don’t have daughters, but I hear the dance costumes are just crazy expensive. “So this is what I would really like, will use and appreciate, and I would be so grateful for a 20, 30, 40, whatever it is, dollar contribution to something that I’ll really use and appreciate.” Right? And what grandparent or aunt and uncle wouldn’t rather do that than spend their hard-earned money on, you know, Firestarter, which is our euphemistic description for, you know… There’s, it’s an alarming number of gifts that-

[00:19:07] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:19:07] Karen Holland: … really are never used or appreciated.

[00:19:10] John Lanza: Well, that, and that really does get at, uh, ’cause you make that claim that this can be something that’s good for, uh, the environment or cli- you know, or the environment. And I, I agree with you because I think there’s, there’s just, there’s so much junk. Any family, even when you have a commitment to reduce the amount of junk, knows when they’re younger we just had rules like, if you get one thing, you had to get 10.

[00:19:30] Karen Holland: One in, one out. Right.

[00:19:32] John Lanza: Right? And, and so often those 10 things, uh, show up and, and, and it was, there was nothing, there was nothing nefarious about it. It was all very good intentions like you’re getting at. Like, the uncles wanna buy something, the grandparents wanna buy something, all really well intentioned, and then all of a sudden you’re swimming in this pile of stuff, right? And so I, I, I love this idea ’cause you touched on something when you first were talking about the DIMS Score about reducing discord.

[00:20:01] Karen Holland: Hm.

[00:20:01] John Lanza: And that really resonated with me because I found that that is what happens with an allowance too, you know. I mean, these things tie together, is that it reduces the discord because you’re putting the responsibility on the kid. Do you wanna go a little bit deeper on the, the, the discord side of things?

[00:20:17] Karen Holland: Well, the way I would describe it is it gets everybody singing from the same song sheet.

[00:20:22] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:23] Karen Holland: So to me, most family discord about spending stems from the, the open-ended question, “What’s the big deal?” You know, “I just wanna go to the movies. What’s the big deal?” Well, parents know the big deal is not the $8 movie ticket. It’s the fact that you need $16 for popcorn and soda, and you need a way to get there and back safely. And you might have preexisting commitments or there’s just no way to swing it. So when a young person goes through the quick but not arbitrary process of calculating the Does It Make Sense Score, all the facts of a purchase are laid bare. So in other words, before they even go to their parents and have a discussion, they know what the big deal is.

[00:21:01] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:21:01] Karen Holland: And what, what we’ve observed is oftentimes they stop themselves. They go, “Actually this is a, is a bigger deal than I’m asked about getting this item or experience.” Right? So they know it’s not worth it because again, they may not articulate it in this fashion, but they have some inner sense of, “I’m allowed X chits per period of time. You know, so many times I can go to the well. And actually when I go through this process, I discover I don’t wanna spend one of those on this particular item or experience.” So we say it improves family harmony because it gets everybody singing from the same song sheet. And similarly for the parents, if, if a child… You know, normally they don’t just do it once. They do it a couple of times. They’re massaging it, right? They want the answers to be just so, and then they upload an image, which we really encourage them to do. We’re like, “Please do not send your 75-year-old grandparents to Foot Locker to buy you a pair of Air Jordans without a photo of the exact pair you want.”

[00:21:57] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:21:57] Karen Holland: “I mean, you are mandating them to failure. They have no chance of getting the right thing right. So please, put a photo in.” That’s why we created that ability. But when they actually get to the point where they’ve generated the summary and they want to share it, it helps parents hearken back to a time when they were young, when the only way they could do or get something was with their parents’ help. And it just, you know, it, it just really warms the whole crowd up on both sides of the table. And you-

[00:22:27] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:22:27] Karen Holland: … you can have some really great conversations.

[00:22:32] John Lanza: You know, it’s, it’s dawning on me, you may have made it clear to everyone out there about the tool, but I, I think it’s worth having you detail ’cause, uh, there might be parents out there thinking it’s like a big deal. You’re asking some questions about a tool. But I think it’s the, I know the thought that you put into the questions, and I’ve gone through the process and I’m, I was surprised by the questions because they are digging deep into things like, for example, how many reuses of this, uh, product are you gonna have? Can you talk about a few of those kinda questions, those kinda questions that make this tool, um, a much more powerful critical thinking driving tool? I really want people to go and use the tool. So, uh, can you go a little deeper on-

[00:23:20] Karen Holland: Sure

[00:23:20] John Lanza: … your question method?

[00:23:22] Karen Holland: Uh, well, in the, in the case of items, you’re right. We have all sorts of questions about use and how to naturally extend the life cycle of a purchase.

[00:23:32] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:23:33] Karen Holland: Um, so for example, when you’re done with this basketball or hockey net or dance costume or super fancy blow dryer or straight iron or whatever it is, do you have a sibling or a cousin who might be able to use it? Because the truth of the matter is very, very few things are actually worn out, right? We grow out of them. One question we ask kids all the time is, “What are kids around the world doing regardless of gender, ethnicity, geography, religion?” Like, no matter where they are, there’s one thing that kids everywhere are doing.

[00:24:07] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:24:08] Karen Holland: They’re growing.

[00:24:09] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:24:10] Karen Holland: So, we, we also really encourage them to be realistic when they answer these questions. Like, out of the gates, they’re like, “I’m gonna wear these Air Jordans-“

[00:24:16] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:24:17] Karen Holland: “… like, 65 days of the year for seven years.” And I’m like, “Well, you live in Wisconsin, and you’re 11, which means 11 months from now, your toes are coming out the end of those Air Jordans, and you can’t even wear them in the dead of winter ’cause there’s four feet of snow.” And, and we tell the kids, the DIMS Score Calculator is like any other tool. Garbage in, garbage out. So if you don’t answer the questions earnestly, the minute your, your caregivers see that, that charitable summary, they’re gonna know, right? “Okay, you cannot wear those shoes seven years in a row consecutively.”

[00:24:48] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:24:49] Karen Holland: The… For an experience, I mean, it’s, it’s interesting. I actually think… I mean, kids are surprised at how costly a seemingly small online purchase becomes when you just even add in sales tax and shipping. And, you know, for, for Canadians… I’m Canadian, um, a lot of, uh, Canadian kids buy things from US retail sites, and so sometimes there is a duty charge. That’s a huge shocker because all of a sudden what seemed reasonable, it can easily double in price.

[00:25:18] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:25:18] Karen Holland: But I think real epiphanies come when it, when they’re calculating the Does It Make Sense Score for an experience, because the ticket price is just the beginning. What about safe transportation? What about snacks? What about souvenirs, right? And it’s not a full experience unless you can do all of that, so you don’t want these surprises, these phantom costs, to be spoilers, which means you’ve really gotta plan for them. And on average, it’s about three to one, the total cost of an experience versus the ticket price. So, we, we just put out a program for the World Cup. I’m sure you know the World Cup is coming to North America in 2026. It’s the first time ever it’s gonna be hosted by Canada, the US and Mexico. And, you know, kids are just wild for these tickets, and they are eye-wateringly expensive. But we think this is a fantastic opportunity for parents to let their kids understand that big dreams can come true with planning and patience. I think even now, we’ve still got… Is it three, four weeks until the first, the first game? I think is June 12th, 2026. So-

[00:26:24] John Lanza: That’s right. [laughs]

[00:26:24] Karen Holland: … again, two thi- two things are gonna happen when a young person calculates the Does It Make Sense Score for FIFA tickets. They’re either gonna go, “Oh, okay. Actually, because I don’t live in a town that’s anywhere near a stadium, so this requires overnight travel, a hotel, yada, yada, yada. This is actually a $2,000 endeavor. I’m not that big a soccer fan. It doesn’t mean that much to me.” Or, they’re gonna go, “You know what? It’s $900, day trip into Atlanta, but, you know, this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance for me to see, you know, my team. I really wanna be there.” And therefore, they are primed and ready to make trade-offs to help the family move that purchase from wish list to reality. In either case, it’s a win-win, right? If they decide of their own volition, “Actually, mm, probably not worth it,” that’s a win. But if they decide they really want it and you’ve got enough time to put a plan in place and teach them how much can be accomplished, that’s a huge win too.

[00:27:30] John Lanza: Uh, what you’re getting at is this importance, and this is something that, uh, we talk about as a key habit for kids, is just understanding, making smart money choices, right? And, uh, and, and that you’re always making choices, whether you’re being mindful about it or not. And so that’s, that’s what this tool really is focused on, is helping them understand that there are choices, uh, and there are also questions that they need to ask that lead to other potential choices. I mean, as we’re talking, I’m thinking the one thing I don’t think you covered is, like, the Diderot effect, right? The idea that-

[00:28:03] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:28:03] John Lanza: … uh, which I, you… Listen, you covered a lot of stuff here.

[00:28:06] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:28:06] John Lanza: Uh, but I’m just thinking, you know, this idea that, you know, once you get the nice shoes, all of a sudden now your pants look crummy, and now you need pants. You need better pants, you needed better shirts. Your, you know, you get a nice rug, and now you need a better couch. And, and it’s, it’s, there’s so much that goes into every purchase. Um,

[00:28:24] John Lanza: have at it, Karen. [laughs]

[00:28:25] Karen Holland: We do a l- we do a little… When it comes to formal wear, so that was a really important category for parents when we ran the pilot, ’cause, you know, now even grade eight graduation is, like, a huge thing, right? I mean, I, you know, I kinda think, like, grade eight graduation is table stakes, but, you know-

[00:28:41] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:28:41] Karen Holland: … we can’t fight City Hall, right? Like, it’s a thing.

[00:28:43] John Lanza: Right.

[00:28:44] Karen Holland: So when you’re getting that dress, one of the questions, or suit, whatever it is, is, “Do you need anything else to really make this outfit work?” Because that’s relevant. You know, if, if the choice is between two dresses or two outfits, and one you already have footwear for and the other you don’t, like, you wanna be mindful of that, because buying footwear is an added real expense.

[00:29:07] John Lanza: Yup.

[00:29:08] Karen Holland: And, um, and you g- you gave us feedback. I mean, one of the things that is fantastic about being a digital platform is that you’re able to incorporate user feedback very efficiently. So, one question that we often ask kids is, “Would your future self high-five this choice?” And that, again, puts the onus on them, right? Because do you wanna make your parents happy? Do you wanna make your grandparents or your teachers happy? I mean, sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t, right? Sometimes you need to be a little more mature before that’s top of mind. But you always wanna make yourself happy.

[00:29:42] John Lanza: I’m almost 57. It took me a long time to s- to have any kind of real future-focused perspective.

[00:29:49] Karen Holland: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:49] John Lanza: As a kid everything is… Like, the person who’s 20 is way old when you’re 12, right? But what you’re doing is introducing them to this concept, right? The future you concept.

[00:29:58] Karen Holland: It’s funny. I’m trying to remember who said it now, but, but somebody actually said to us that the DIMS Score Calculator is a bridge from the present to the future-

[00:30:06] John Lanza: That’s a good, yeah

[00:30:06] Karen Holland: … because it turns impulse into insight, right?

[00:30:09] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:30:10] Karen Holland: And collected insights over time give us confidence. I mean, confidence is just the feeling of success repeated.

[00:30:17] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Karen Holland: So if you… If you can have this experience where… You know, th- this is not a m- you know, there’s no liver transplants here, right? This is not a major investment of time. You know…… first time, maybe it takes you five minutes to calculate the Does It Make Sense Score, but once you become familiar with the platform, this is a, this is a two-minute exercise.

[00:30:34] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:30:35] Karen Holland: So imagine how powerful it is for a young person to discover that, wow, I take two minutes out to answer these simple questions about typical purchases. And, and again, I, I mean, I keep on repeating myself, but it’s true. Avoid disappointment. You know, stop getting repeat gifts, gifts they won’t use or appreciate. Um, avoid waste because your family members… I mean, we say to kids all the time, “Here’s the bad news. It takes time and money even to buy you stuff you don’t want, don’t use, don’t appreciate.” So let’s put that to bed, right? Improve family harmony. Protect the planet. So children wouldn’t use these words, but they certainly recognize, “Wow, that’s a pretty high return on investment. You know, I can do it all at once for free, and I get to-“

[00:31:18] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:31:18] Karen Holland: “… avoid all of this drama. That’s worth my time.”

[00:31:22] John Lanza: I mean, you’ve just dawned on me, as I forget which app it is, introduces friction in a very frictionless process, right? So one of the things they would do in a savings account, and again, I can’t remember what the program was, but you would have to, like, physically tap on the screen to break the safe or the glass-

[00:31:41] Karen Holland: Oh. Interesting

[00:31:41] John Lanza: … in order to get access to the saving. Which, which is good, but it’s, it’s, you know, if someone wants … If the kid wants it, they’re gonna just tap a few times. But the idea of having a DIMS Score on top of all purchases or purchases of a certain amount or beyond att- like, tied into the, um, app that you’re using to pay for things for kids, especially for these… ‘Cause, you know, that’s a big thing now, are these debit cards that are like training wheels. So they’re debit cards that allow the parents to see, uh, what their kids are spending their money on, allow money to be transferred to the kids. And that’s good, except that the … You still need to introduce friction, and it just seems like this would be such a perfect thing rather than just a classroom tool, but, like, an in the experience type of tool.

[00:32:29] Karen Holland: So it’s interesting you- that you use that metaphor of training wheels. Uh, we use a lot of sports and driving metaphors and a lot of humor, ’cause that’s what resonates with kids.

[00:32:40] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:32:40] Karen Holland: So I think of, of these youth debit cards as graduated licensing, right? So, you know, when you first learn to drive, your first license, it’s, we call it your 365, says, you know, first you can only be in the car with a parent, then you can only be in the car with yourself, then you can, uh, you have to be home before midnight, and then if, at the very end of the road, you can be in the car with other teenagers and come home, you know, at 1:00 in the morning.

[00:33:07] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:08] Karen Holland: I liken the Does It Make Sense Score Calculator to Spending Ed. So you know we have Driver’s Ed? Because we say to ourselves, “Well, we, we would never let our kids out on the road to actually drive a car until we gave them this foundational skills and awareness, right?” Like, “This is what a stop sign looks like, and this is how you approach a yield, and you have to put your blinker on when you turn.” So we think of it as Spending Ed. It provides kids with the same foundational skills and awareness, and it’s a spending speed bump. And if you, if you want to extend the metaphor, if you think about driving a car in real life, a speed bump does not stop you from getting anywhere you really want to go.

[00:33:50] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:50] Karen Holland: It does help you get there safely.

[00:33:52] John Lanza: That is interesting. You know, I, I was, as, as I’m thinking about it, I’m also thinking about the metaphor of athletics, because you’re just getting your reps in, right? Um, and you’re getting your reps in. This is why I think the idea of putting it, making it a tool on top that, that re- is required before you spend cash, you know, uh, you need to have some kind of threshold. But you get your reps in where you actually have to go through all the questions, and then after a while, you don’t have to go through the questions because you’re mentally processing all those questions-

[00:34:20] Karen Holland: Right. Thank you

[00:34:21] John Lanza: … as part of who you are, right? Yeah.

[00:34:24] Karen Holland: You know, this is why early financial education is such an elegant upstream solution to financial illiteracy.

[00:34:33] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:34:33] Karen Holland: Because when we imprint the habit of pausing, gathering information and reflecting before spending money-

[00:34:41] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:34:41] Karen Holland: … it becomes a default setting for when we’re older. You know, the, the real issue is that, and, and you know this, all of our money habits and beliefs are established as early as seven, fully baked in by high school. If you have a set of unproductive habits and beliefs, their ability to undermine your financial well-being is really masked by the fact that you don’t make your most consequential financial decisions until 15, 20 years later. Think about it. When do you, do you choose a post-secondary program, a car, a house?

[00:35:15] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:16] Karen Holland: So, it’s so much-

[00:35:17] John Lanza: Or don’t, don’t forget taking out a student loan.

[00:35:18] Karen Holland: … so much easier to avoid a pitfall than dig out of one.

[00:35:22] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:35:22] Karen Holland: What we’re trying to do is create circumstances under which kids develop productive money habits and beliefs out of the gates. Because what we have right now is, you know, there’s some precipitous negative event. You default on a loan, um, you declare bankruptcy, and so then you have to go through this, you know, quite difficult, um, process of identifying your money habits and beliefs, ’cause again, they are unconscious, and then d- attempting to re-engineer the parts that really aren’t serving you. I mean, just imagine if, if you just grew up

[00:35:56] Karen Holland: understanding that, you know, if you, if you-

[00:35:59] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:35:59] Karen Holland: … got information before you made the decisions, you could, you could really avoid a lot of heartache. I mean-

[00:36:06] John Lanza: Okay. So, you brought the-

[00:36:09] Karen Holland: Okay

[00:36:09] John Lanza: … you brought the Cambridge study, right?

[00:36:11] Karen Holland: Okay. Okay. [laughs]

[00:36:12] John Lanza: I see this, and we … I mean, we’ve all, like, ev- I remember when I, uh, when I got into this, like, two decades ago, I brought the Cambridge study. But I have … It, it supports what we are obsessively interested in, right? The importance of starting the money conversation early, the…But what does it suggest to parents who might not have started a program or a conversation by age eight or worse later, and doesn’t it mean then that programs that are aimed later, uh, at eight and above, are really just about breaking bad habits rather than establishing good ones?

[00:36:47] Karen Holland: Okay. Well, I think- I think it says nothing to parents who haven’t started by age eight, because developmental windows, you know, they’re not these hard, sharp periods, right? It’s- it’s like the adage for planting a tree. I mean, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the next best time is tonight or tomorrow.

[00:37:04] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:37:05] Karen Holland: So, it- it is never too late, and certainly as long as a young person is, you know, under your roof, I would say, you know, you- you still have a golden opportunity. Um, I mean, it’s a lot harder now for students to amass unwitting credit card debt than it used to be after, you know, Obama put that Credit Card Act into place. Excuse me. Now, you can’t solicit on campuses, and, uh, you have to have an adult cosigner and all of that. But let’s just say you’ve got a 19-year-old who somehow has spent more than they should in their- in their first year of college. Okay, well, you know, IOF, identify, own, fix. Like, y- you know, it’s- it’s how far wrong could they go? Right? They haven’t- they haven’t, um, graduated with a program that doesn’t suit them at all. They haven’t, you know, bought some huge house. I mean, it’s not a total disaster. You still have a chance to address it. So, I mean, I- I do think that ideally it happens, and- and again, thinking before buying isn’t a silver bullet. There’s no such thing as one and done in financial literacy. What we’re trying to do is convince kids before they become adult income earners that being good with money is a worthy pursuit. Right?

[00:38:23] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:38:23] Karen Holland: The problem is not a lack of information. There is more amazing information than ever before in the history of the planet. More books, programs, apps, you name it. And it’s more democratically accessible thanks to the World Wide Web. Right? It’s never been easier to get this great information, and yet we have like a not insignificant number of people not availing themselves to employer-sponsored savings programs, like all of these things. So why? Why is that? Because they don’t believe that information is for them. They don’t believe they can use that information to make their life better. We want to give school-aged children a firsthand experience that it’s unequivocal anybody can ask questions about money, anybody can get and use financial information to help shape their future. That… Think about how powerful an experience that is. Discovering that you have agency at that young an age. And from that point forward, there’s none of this, “It’s somebody else’s fault,” or, “I can’t do it.” It’s, “What do I have to do to put the steps in place?”

[00:39:26] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:39:26] Karen Holland: I mean, it’s- it’s a game changer.

[00:39:30] John Lanza: It is a game changer. I think the other thing, though, is that- that- that… I- it’s- it’s more than that in terms of purchasing, um, because the other thing that most people don’t, and- and especially kids don’t get, is that things are never going to bring you happiness. Like, they are… Uh, a- aside from anything that’s moment- that’s- that’s- that’s very, very, um, fleeting. Right? And which is why we always talk about the importance of experience, because the kids… I could talk to my kids about that till they’re blue in the face. They do have to have their own experiences. I mean, this goes back to the beginning of our conversation when you were talking about kids have to learn. They’re gonna make mistakes. That’s okay. That’s part of the process. Right? And we’ve- we’ve talked a- about that on this podcast many, many times. But that’s the other huge part of this is, this- this idea that things are not gonna bring happiness. What I like about, um, the- your program is that it- it is letting them get the things that they [laughs] think are going to potentially bring them happiness or whatever it might be. But, uh, they do it in a thoughtful way, and then it’s only through… This is where I think the parent can be helpful also is to do… We’ve talked about like Joe Saul-Sehy was on our podcast. He called it the Circle Back Technique where you can do… You can kind of encourage reflection on the part of the kid in a, you know, a week, a two weeks or four weeks or whatever it might be about that purchase just to have them think about it. So they may have thought one way about it, and then they may… when they got those Jordans that they think they’re going to use 365 days a year, it’s like, “How’s it going? Did you use those shoes 30 days in the past month? Are you… How are you feeling about your purchase?” And not to say that they’re going to sit there every time and say, “You were right. I shouldn’t have gotten it,” or-

[00:41:17] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:41:17] John Lanza: “Gosh, this was such a waste of money.” It’s more just that they’re thinking about it. Isn’t that what we… or what we’re trying to encourage, Karen?

[00:41:25] Karen Holland: So, it’s… I- I love that you bring that up because, um, we introduced a back-to-school list builder at summer camps this past summer and people kinda went crazy for it. And the first step on the back-to-school list builder is called hits and misses. And we said, you know, June teaches us a lot about September. So right at the end of the school year, I know- I know the temptation is to just hurl the backpack in the- in the garage or the corner of a room somewhere and not even, um, you know, open it until September. But right at the end of school, we encourage families to sit down just for 10 minutes and say, “Okay. What really worked this year and what didn’t?” Was there something that somebody in your class had, some- some tool, device, whatever it is, and you thought, “Wow, that would be awesome. It would make my life easier?” Was there something that you, you know, you- you begged us for and we bought you and you’re like, “Actually, I didn’t use it that much?” Um, you know, what was worth it and what wasn’t? And just keep that in mind for September when you do your back-to-school shopping.

[00:42:28] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:42:28] Karen Holland: Because kids are reflective, and when it doesn’t mean they have to forego a purchase at that moment, they’re much more open to that process. Right?

[00:42:38] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:42:38] Karen Holland: So you just want to sit back and go, “Okay, it’s the end of the school year. What worked? What didn’t?” And then when you’re heading into September, you’re saying, “Okay, what do I need? What do I have? What can wait? What is such a big deal to me but is also so expensive I’m willing to treat it as an upcoming birthday or holiday gift?” Or, “Mom and Dad, would you let me crowdfund this amongst my extended family members?” And all of those are opportunities for kids to stop and really say, “Do I really want this? Is it worth what I have to give up? Is it gonna make my life better?” Or if they’re buying something for somebody else, “Is it gonna make their life better?” Like, like, you and I kid around all the time. I don’t want to sound like a Monty Python skit, “You know, when I went to school, when dinosaurs roamed the planet…” Right? [laughs]

[00:43:24] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:43:24] Karen Holland: Like, I, I tell kids all the time, like, I had a job at the Dairy Queen. So, I’d take my paper paycheck to the bank, stand in line, and then, um, you know, your, the check had to clear, because when you were-

[00:43:37] John Lanza: Hmm

[00:43:37] Karen Holland: … a 14-year-old Dairy Queen employee, you didn’t, you couldn’t, you often didn’t have as much money in your account as the check was for, so the check had to clear. Then you had to go back to the bank. Like, we didn’t even have bank machines, right? [laughs] You had to go back to the bank and get cash. Then the store had to be open when you were not in school, and there was, like, a really small window, like Friday night, Saturday if you weren’t at some sports or community event, right? And then the store had to have exactly what you wanted, you know, what you needed, in the right size, color, whatever. And then here’s the final kicker. You had to have every dime on your person required to execute that transaction.

[00:44:14] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:44:14] Karen Holland: There was no picking up, “I don’t know where mine is,” picking up the magic box, texting anybody, asking them to Venmo you the difference or whatever, right? Like, just none of that was available. So, it’s, it’s true, retail science would call all, all of those things friction points. I call them opportunities. They were all opportunities. And by the time you went through that entire lengthy, arduous process, yeah, you were pretty happy with what you got because you really thought about it.

[00:44:42] John Lanza: That’s, that’s such a good point. I love when you put it like that, because the fric- there were so many friction points.

[00:44:49] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:44:49] John Lanza: [Laughs] I mean, it was so much harder to buy anything back then.

[00:44:55] Karen Holland: I, I mean, I, sometimes my, our son will say, “Well, why didn’t you guys do whatever?” And we look at him and we’re like, “Are you kidding?”

[00:45:00] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:45:00] Karen Holland: You know, there was no… We didn’t have digital printers.

[00:45:04] John Lanza: Yes.

[00:45:04] Karen Holland: And Mark and I talk about how at our very last year of undergrad, there was a mainframe and you could, you know, take your floppy disk and go to the mainframe and then, “Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da,” it would come out, and then you had to peel the tab strips off the side, and then you’d discover a typo, and you’d just-

[00:45:22] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:45:22] Karen Holland: … like, go, “Ugh.” Right? Like, I mean, they, it’s, I think it’s, it’s actually really hard for kids because th- they’re only living in the world they grew up in. Like-

[00:45:31] John Lanza: Yeah

[00:45:31] Karen Holland: … another thing we do is we ask kids, you know, “Where does money come from?” And you could be gobsmacked. Well, m- probably you wouldn’t be, but other people are gobsmacked when we tell them the answers. The phone, um, uh, uh, the wall, that’s a bank machine. Daddy has a magic plastic card. Now, when you think about it, kids are only describing the world they see around them, right? And it must honestly look like mom or dad have this magic plastic card and they use it to get everything from a tank of gas to ice cream. So we keep on asking questions, ’cause the answer we’re driving towards is, no, every dime that gets spent in a household is because somebody in that household has, wait for it, a J-O-B.

[00:46:12] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:46:13] Karen Holland: And they earned wages. So, what, what kids are doing is they’re confusing payment methods with how they’re funded. But it’s an honest mistake given the world they live in.

[00:46:27] John Lanza: Yes, and that’s why I do think that I’ve been recently making the case, and even Barbara when she came on, she makes the case too, that we should be introducing our kids to digital money earlier than we might think. And I first heard this from Chelsea Brennan, who’s the Smart Money Mama. She came on, and I was actually kind of stunned. She was, she said she was giving her seven- and four-year-old, uh, they were using the Greenlight card, and she did that because she wanted to make sure sh- that her allowance was consistent. And the four-year-old was getting it because the seven-year-old got it, right?

[00:47:00] Karen Holland: Right.

[00:47:00] John Lanza: So that, that’s, that’s why that happened. But I also think it’s really important to maintain some cash transactions when those kids’ pre-allowance, say, two, three, four years old, giving them a little bit of money, doing a transaction, giving some cash, getting some change back so that they see that that’s what’s happening on the digital side. They see that that’s happening so that they can at least start, they can still, can understand that there’s an exchange that’s going on. Um, so when we’re making… I’m just, as we’re talking about this, I’m realizing, yes, y- it’s okay, I think, to, to start the digital money process earlier, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be some cash somewhere in there for kids to conceptualize exchange. Does that make sense to you, Karen?

[00:47:47] Karen Holland: It does. I mean, look at the problem is the horse is out of the gates. I mean, there’s a lot of stores now that don’t even take cash.

[00:47:53] John Lanza: That’s a good point, yeah.

[00:47:54] Karen Holland: So, uh, uh, I mean, you know, we, we, we have to be flexible. However, it, it feels, we know this, there are studies, but just think about your own personal experience. It’s just a lot harder to spend cash than, you know, tap, tap, tap.

[00:48:10] John Lanza: Yeah.

[00:48:10] Karen Holland: Right?

[00:48:10] John Lanza: No doubt.

[00:48:11] Karen Holland: So, uh, I mean, it’s, it’s like everything, it’s balance. It’s balance, right? I mean, we, we need to balance all of these approaches.

[00:48:22] John Lanza: Well, it gets to the, one of the key points that we’ve been talking about which is that without the friction… I’m so glad you brought up the purchase from, from, [laughs] from-

[00:48:31] Karen Holland: Yes, here, yes, yes, yes

[00:48:31] John Lanza: … from the dinosaur age where we were getting our, at our first jobs and we had our passbooks and all that.

[00:48:35] Karen Holland: Yes, yes. [laughs]

[00:48:36] John Lanza: But it, but it’s good because it, it helps us all, uh, we can all immediately think of all those, all those friction points. So, we as parents have to intr- introduce these, um, artificial friction points. So, we’ve talked about the idea of a waiting period, which is that for a- for purchases over a certain amount of money, just say to the kids, “You know, if you, if you haven’t set it as a goal on your jar, or if you iden- haven’t identified it as a goal on your app, you can’t get that if it’s over $50 unless you wait a week.” Right? And-

[00:49:06] Karen Holland: Well, you give a lot of those very helpful tactics in your book, and I, I do think that they’re, they’re terrific. These are hugely transferrable skills, right?

[00:49:16] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:16] Karen Holland: Like, impulse control does not…… just pertain to personal finances. It’s, it’s hugely beneficial in all sorts of life.

[00:49:24] John Lanza: Very true. Okay. Now, I have, I have some questions I really wanna ask you, uh-

[00:49:29] Karen Holland: Okay

[00:49:30] John Lanza: … including the fast and fun round question.

[00:49:32] Karen Holland: Okay.

[00:49:33] John Lanza: Uh, I feel like we could go back and forth on this, uh, for a while. But I w- I, there’s a sidebar. I have to ask you about this. Was listening to this, uh, 1995 interview with, uh, Charlie Munger, the late Charlie Munger.

[00:49:43] Karen Holland: Yes.

[00:49:43] John Lanza: Warren Buffet, long time, uh, partner at Berkshire Hathaway. And he said, he was talking, this is 1995. He’s talking about-

[00:49:51] Karen Holland: Got it

[00:49:51] John Lanza: … his gambling, talking about gambling. He said this, “Gambling compulsion is a very, very important thing. Look what’s happening in our country. Every reservation, every river town, look at the people who are ruined by it.” Now gambling is literally everywhere. I personally am disgusted by it. But every sports site, every sports event, it’s, I think it’s only a matter of time before even, like, the, the icons of announcing, like the great Al Michaels, will be hawking parlays in between play calls, ’cause they’re already doing it on screen. Okay, my, I gotta calm down a little bit.

[00:50:29] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:50:29] John Lanza: Now-

[00:50:30] Karen Holland: Hi, I mean, I, I hear you. I hear you.

[00:50:32] John Lanza: So, but let me, let me, I, I, uh, since I, I, I, I just think it’s imperative that we help our kids understand how dangerous gambling can be-

[00:50:40] Karen Holland: Mm-hmm

[00:50:41] John Lanza: … because it’s becoming, it’s like, it’s now becoming the water that they’re gonna be swimming in, right?

[00:50:46] Karen Holland: Yeah, 100 percent.

[00:50:46] John Lanza: It’s right up there with smoking, in my opinion. Again, my opinion. Have you considered adding gambling as an item or an experience, one, to the DIMS Score? Um, and I understand why you wouldn’t, but I’m just-

[00:50:57] Karen Holland: Mm-hmm

[00:50:57] John Lanza: … just wondering. And then, uh, I, I will say, you will be happy to know, I ran, I used the DIMS Score to run, like, a, an idea of a parlay.

[00:51:05] Karen Holland: Okay. [laughs]

[00:51:05] John Lanza: Um, and it came up, it came back with a five. So-

[00:51:08] Karen Holland: Excellent, excellent

[00:51:09] John Lanza: … it’s working as is.

[00:51:10] Karen Holland: Okay. [laughs]

[00:51:11] John Lanza: But anyway, I’m teeing that up for you. I wanna get your thoughts on how we deal with what I, I really think is a scourge that our kids are gonna have to address.

[00:51:21] Karen Holland: Well, I will tell you, I, I, I am quite surprised at the surge in sports betting that’s taken place as of late, because, you know, in the United Kingdom, they’ve already come out the other end of this. They know what a problem it is. Um, they’ve had some huge mental health issues as a result of gambling indebtedness, and they now have regulation against it. So, uh, I’m a little surprised that in North America, we’re behind that curve. Uh, there’s no question in my mind that, I mean, just like the phone thing in school, I mean, Wait ‘Til Eight is the single greatest, um, thing that’s happened, if you ask me. And that, that change has come about so quickly. I mean, really, Jonathan Haidt wrote that book and within seven months, we saw huge changes in schools, huge positive-

[00:52:18] John Lanza: Mm-hmm. Yeah

[00:52:18] Karen Holland: … changes. So, I think that we’ll come out on the other side. The question is how many people are gonna be ruined in the interim, and I would put that into the category of a totally avoidable pitfall. So, I haven’t thought about a DIMS Score calculator for, for gambling. I mean, I will tell you, people write to us all the time. I mean, we, we do actually have the questions for, like, first car, first apartment, but we’re sort of, we wanna stay in our lane. We-

[00:52:44] John Lanza: Sure

[00:52:45] Karen Holland: … think we do what we do really well for middle schoolers and, and, you know, maybe ninth and 10th graders. And, um, I think our architecture would need more work because more consequential decisions need more, more questions and thought. Um, but I do, do think that gambling is a problem and I’m glad to hear that when you went through the process of even just pausing, gathering information and reflecting on that decision, um, it guided you in the right direction. That’s music to my ears.

[00:53:15] John Lanza: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I don’t use any of those apps. Um, I, I will, uh, to be, be fair, I, I run family pools.

[00:53:23] Karen Holland: Yeah.

[00:53:24] John Lanza: Um, but these, but I only do that if we’re talking about, like, $10. Like, we’re talking so little m- it’s really just for entertainment, uh, sake. So, I enjoy the idea, I enjoy the concept of it. I just think the, the way that it’s structured now is really problematic because it is everywhere. ‘Cause I remember the day that ESPN went from just being, showing the, showing scores, to the next, it was literally the next day, their update. Now it had scores and then all the odds underneath it because they, you know, they felt like they had to compete with all the other, uh, gambling apps that were on there.

[00:53:59] Karen Holland: Well, and you know, the, the problem with the sports is that kids are such big sports fans, right?

[00:54:05] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:05] Karen Holland: I mean, Hockey Night in Canada is a huge thing. Look at the World Series, it’s a huge thing. I mean, kids are-

[00:54:10] John Lanza: Right

[00:54:11] Karen Holland: … glued to the screens. And when they see that, I mean, at a minimum, it’s, it’s going to promote questions and this idea that, you know, you can get rich quickly, which of course is just not true.

[00:54:26] John Lanza: Well, and then you’ll have celebrities, usually celebrity athletes who will come on and they’ll do those, you know, PSAs where they’ll say, “Don’t chase your losses.” But the whole, the, the whole business is around chasing your losses because once you’ve lost this bet, well, don’t worry. There’s, there’s- [laughs]

[00:54:43] Karen Holland: Right

[00:54:43] John Lanza: … there’s another similar bet you can make. There seems to be an opportunity with every, uh, almost every second of every sports event, and s- that’s, so, so this idea that while we’re presenting, we’re giving this public good, these PSAs, is just a smokescreen, um, over what is really a, a very problematic-

[00:55:02] Karen Holland: I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s a big issue. There’s no two ways about it, and I know people feel very strongly about the, the endorsements.

[00:55:10] John Lanza: I appreciate you indulging me, um, on that. I wasn’t really thinking that you would be adding gambling-

[00:55:18] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:55:18] John Lanza: … to the, uh, DIMS Score. [laughs]

[00:55:20] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[00:55:20] John Lanza: [laughs] But I figured I would ask. Okay. So before I ask you, uh, some of these fast and fun round questions and, uh, some big, important questions, I do wanna like … What’s an interesting fact about you that most people would not guess, Karen?

[00:55:36] Karen Holland: Hmm.

[00:55:36] John Lanza: Fun fact. Fun fact about Karen Holland.

[00:55:39] Karen Holland: Oh, I really like to sew.

[00:55:41] John Lanza: Hm. Interesting.

[00:55:42] Karen Holland: Yeah.

[00:55:43] John Lanza: What was the most recent thing that you sewed?

[00:55:46] Karen Holland: Well, as of late, it’s … I, I do a lot of altering. I’m not the world’s tallest person, and I’m very short-waisted, so, um, you know, I will tell you that movie stars and celebrities look great because literally everything is tailored to them.

[00:56:03] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:03] Karen Holland: And so I have learned over the years that you can buy almost anything off the rack, and if you tailor it, it’s gonna look great on you. So I do a fair bit of that. And it’s a … And that’s a huge money-saver.

[00:56:16] John Lanza: How did you learn to sew?

[00:56:17] Karen Holland: My mom taught me.

[00:56:19] John Lanza: Ah.

[00:56:19] Karen Holland: My mom taught us. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite Christmas gifts ever … My … I have a twin sister, and my twin sister is actually a … just a whiz sewer. I mean-

[00:56:29] John Lanza: Mm-hmm

[00:56:29] Karen Holland: … she has her own serger. Do you know what a serger is? Like, if you look at the inside of a garment-

[00:56:33] John Lanza: I do

[00:56:33] Karen Holland: … where the thread over-looped and there’s this tight edge, that’s done with a serger. Very few home sewers have, like, a professional serger. My sister has one.

[00:56:42] John Lanza: Wow.

[00:56:42] Karen Holland: And, um, when we moved from Canada to the United States, my twin made arrangements for my husband to buy me the exact … No-, I don’t have a serger, but I have her identical sewing machine, and that’s so that when I get myself in a pickle, I can call Cathy and she can talk me through it. And that, to this day … I mean, that happened a long time ago. Uh, that’s one of my favorite Christmas gifts ever because it’s just … it’s really handy. It is really handy. Let me tell you, it’s emancipating when you can hem your own jeans, or anybody else’s.

[00:57:12] John Lanza: [laughs] Well, I, I … You’d be proud. I actually, I actually recently learned to darn.

[00:57:16] Karen Holland: Ah, yes.

[00:57:17] John Lanza: Save a few socks, maybe some underwear, and, uh, you know, keep it around for a little bit longer. All right. Well, that is an interesting fact. Thank you, Karen.

[00:57:24] Karen Holland: No problem.

[00:57:25] John Lanza: Also, I wanna ask you, what is one important truth that-

[00:57:29] Karen Holland: Ah

[00:57:29] John Lanza: … very few people agree with you about?

[00:57:33] Karen Holland: The Peter Thiel question.

[00:57:35] John Lanza: Yes.

[00:57:37] Karen Holland: Well,

[00:57:40] Karen Holland: I think it’s … I think it’s that thinking before buying is so simple, you know, what can it really accomplish? Particularly for children who live with scarcity. You know, I, I ha- I had a really good friend, this was very on, very early on, like nine years ago, and he said to me, “You know, this is a great idea, this whole Gifting Sense thing, but what you’re gonna be up against is people are gonna say, “Do children really need formal instruction on thinking before buying?” Particularly children who live with scarcity.” It i- And he likened it to instructions for toothpaste, you know, do we really need instructions for toothpaste? And I categorically disagree with him, obviously. Here I am, like, 11 years later.

[00:58:23] John Lanza: [laughs]

[00:58:23] Karen Holland: But here’s, here’s my response. I understand where that comes from. I think, um, there’s this feeling that children who live with scarcity, you know, do- don’t, don’t get to ask for or receive, you know, birthday gifts, holiday gifts, or back-to-school shopping or sports equipment or, or whatever it is. And certainly, sometimes that’s the case. I mean, in every school or community, there’s a continuum of economic realities, right? Some children face daily hardships, others live with comfort, most of us live in between. But my experience is, and this has been corroborated with the many, many, many times I’ve spent in schools and conversations I’ve had with educators and school administrators, most children w- of course, want to participate in fully in life as their well-heeled brethren, and most children expect that their birthday will be recognized in some form or fashion, right, when they’re still of school age. The second part of that, you know, instructions for toothpaste remark is this

[00:59:27] Karen Holland: broader assumption that living with scarcity teaches us everything we need to know about money because children who live with scarcity have to, have to pick and choose at every turn, right?

[00:59:38] John Lanza: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:38] Karen Holland: So here’s my … here’s my response to that. Living with scarcity might hone your ability to choose because you, you do have to make these trade-offs much more frequently. It does nothing to demystify personal finance jargon, nor does it encourage you to gather information from all of the wonderful, trustworthy, accessible places there are to gather it from. And so just on those two fronts, it falls well short of what a simple framework that allows children to quickly, but not arbitrarily, impose a small amount of consistent thinking on a decision-making process, like, it just doesn’t … it doesn’t get that job done. And as we’ve already discussed, when your default money habits and beliefs are being established, if you acquire the insight that anyone can get and use information to shape their future, well, think about how powerful that is. It’s a game-changer. And it’s particularly a game-changer for kids who live with scarcity. I mean, oftentimes principals will say to me, “Okay, you know, we have this dynamic, we have that dynamic. How, how does your program, um, suit all of the various dynamics that we have at play here?” And my answer is, “The program does something beneficial, but it does do different things for different kids.” So for example, let’s look at a child who lives with abundance. So you could say, “Well, they don’t have to make a lot of trade-offs. You know, they know darn well they’re gonna get Air Jordans and jeans for a birthday gift.”

[01:01:21] John Lanza: Sure. Yeah.

[01:01:22] Karen Holland: What our program does is give them something called a focus dividend. So, we know that even if you’re, if you grow up with money, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to be good with money. In fact, there’s a cottage industry of private wealth managers who are now helping their clients become, their chil- children become money smart, because we know that growing up with money doesn’t mean you’ll be good with it. And so I always say, “Well, isn’t the flip side to that coin that if you don’t grow up with money, you can absolutely learn everything you need?”

[01:01:49] John Lanza: [laughs]

[01:01:49] Karen Holland: And the answer is yes, right? Can’t have it both ways.

[01:01:52] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:01:52] Karen Holland: So, it gives children who live with abundance a focus dividend. There was a huge study done at Princeton and U Chicago by Mullainathan and Shafir. They actually wrote a book called Scarcity, and they said that for children who, who live with, you know, extreme scarcity, I mean, I’m talking the, you know, the tail end of the normal distribution curve, they have a cognitive bandwidth tax, right? So, they’re not even primed to learn. It’s just about survival.

[01:02:17] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:02:17] Karen Holland: And they use the example of a juggler. So, if you think about somebody juggling, like, you’re just looking, like, “Where’s the next ball? Where’s the next ball?” But being financially organized requires you to have a sight line beyond, you know, just an, an immediate concern.

[01:02:30] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:02:30] Karen Holland: So, they did all of this work. I won’t try to summarize, you know, five years of somebody else’s hard work in a, in a sound bite, but the conclusion was that a rule of thumb, which is a simple reminder to avoid a pitfall, can really do a job for these kids, because they really, they can’t absorb anything else. So, what’s the DIM Score as that rule of thumb? I mean, most kids today have a cellphone after grade eight.

[01:02:56] Karen Holland: Even if they don’t have a data plan, so they can’t actually calculate the Does It Make Sense score in a store, once they’ve been introduced to the tool, once they’ve had a workshop, they can certainly stand there in line and say, “Okay, now how many times am I really gonna use this, and what is sales tax gonna add? And is it really worth it, and is there something else I’d rather have?” Right? So, just being introduced to this process and understanding that it literally takes minutes, minutes to pause, gather information, and reflect before you make a decision, and chances are, you’re gonna make a decision that not only you’re gonna be happier with, but your, your family. I mean, it’s a, it’s a big deal. And somebody did teach you how to use toothpaste. They told you how much to put on the brush, not to swallow it, you know. And, and even just tooth brushing is another terrific example of how good habits adopted early in life permanently improve our well-being. Did you know that regular tooth brushing only became a thing after the Second World War?

[01:03:55] John Lanza: I knew it was fair … I knew it was, like, last century. Yes.

[01:03:58] Karen Holland: Right. So, you know, trench mouth wasn’t just a term thrown around in the movies. Like, nobody looked after their teeth, and soldiers regularly couldn’t complete their duty. So, it comes down the chain of command, brush your teeth twice a day. Now, here’s where I get excited. The war ends, soldiers take this daily habit home to their families. In 40 years, John, this is nothing, a blip in the history of mankind, okay? Oral cavities go from an early-onset childhood disease to a late-onset adult disease. So, all of our grandparents, I’m a little older than you, had dentures. Do you know anybody with dentures today?

[01:04:31] John Lanza: Uh, n- only someone who is, uh, in her 90s.

[01:04:34] Karen Holland: Right. We, we’ve basically eradicated dentures, and tooth brushing, very simple habit, not only dentists teach their kids to brush their teeth, permanently improved the well-being of citizenry. Thinking before buying, very simple habit, when introduced young, has the power to permanently improve the well-being of citizenry.

[01:04:54] John Lanza: Yes.

[01:04:56] John Lanza: And you can carry that metaphor a little bit, um, a little bit further, because my first thought is, “Well, you’re fighting against this consumer culture,” right? Well, you are fighting against humans’ desire for sweets. Like, that is hardwired into us, so I think that, that metaphor is pretty solid. I, there, I have two thoughts.

[01:05:16] Karen Holland: Okay.

[01:05:17] John Lanza: Um, one, I think, you know, your, uh, friend who was challenging you, and it’s always good to have smart friends reaching out …

[01:05:23] Karen Holland: 100%. 100%.

[01:05:24] John Lanza: I, you know, it’s also assuming that people would know what questions to ask. Like, even when I went through your DIMS Score calculator, I’m like, “I don’t think about all these questions.” Now, I will be thinking about them. The, it’s, this is the beauty of the pr- It’s always one of my favorite parts of the process, and I always tell parents, like, “If you lean into this, you’re gonna learn just as much, if not more, [laughs]-

[01:05:44] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[01:05:44] John Lanza: … in the process, even as you’re teaching.” I mean, this is probably the case with every teacher. You learn as much in the process of teaching as the t- as the student learns. The other thought, and this is, uh, you really touched on this, uh … I haven’t thought about this topic in a while, but I had Chuck Kalish on, like, I don’t know, it was, like, 70 episodes ago.

[01:06:04] Karen Holland: [laughs]

[01:06:04] John Lanza: And he’s a child development expert, and he talked about this was the issue with l- uh, folks who are living with scarcity, is toxic stress. And what it does, getting to your point, you, it affects your decision-making, right? You cannot process. So, and that gets exactly to this question, the idea of asking the right questions. Your, your brain is compromised by the toxic stress. So, very good point. I’m glad you brought that up. We’ll put that in the show notes, ’cause he talks about that, um, a lot in that episode.

[01:06:34] Karen Holland: Scarcity is a great, is a great book. I mean, really, anybody working with young people today needs to read that book. It really, really helps you understand what these kids are up against.

[01:06:44] John Lanza: Right. Well, we’ll put that in the, uh, show notes as well.

[01:06:48] Karen Holland: Okay. [laughs]

[01:06:48] John Lanza: Well, that was a terrific answer to that question, uh, Karen.

[01:06:51] Karen Holland: Cool.

[01:06:51] John Lanza: So, I appreciate you thinking about that, and, uh, and giving us something to think about. Okay, so now, are you prepared for the fast and fun round questions?

[01:07:00] Karen Holland: Okay, okay, okay. [laughs] Fast and fun.

[01:07:03] John Lanza: Okay. These are a little easier, I think. So-

[01:07:04] Karen Holland: I think so.

[01:07:05] John Lanza: So, Karen, what does the term money empowered mean to you?

[01:07:11] Karen Holland: Well, I mean, I, I think it means something different to me as an older person. Now, it means being able to do what I know is right for me versus what I can afford. I mean, that-

[01:07:22] John Lanza: Sure.

[01:07:22] Karen Holland: … that’s a luxury that an older person has because stuff just means so much less to you as you get older, but that’s my answer.

[01:07:29] John Lanza: Okay. Very nice. What’s the best investment of time or money you ever spent on your son?

[01:07:36] Karen Holland: Hands down, driving to all these mother-loving hockey and baseball tournaments. [laughs]

[01:07:42] John Lanza: [laughs]

[01:07:42] Karen Holland: But, you know, you’re together, you’re together with other families. And let me tell you, spending a weekend, um, away with families at tournaments, like that really normalizes that money is scarce for many and finite for all. It normalizes all sorts of family dynamics. So, I, I just, I look back and, and I mean, at the time it felt like all we did, but I think it was really important and, and we miss it. We miss it now that it’s over.

[01:08:10] John Lanza: Very true. We’re in the same situation-

[01:08:12] Karen Holland: Yeah

[01:08:12] John Lanza: … and we miss it as well. [laughs]

[01:08:16] John Lanza: What advice do you most hope about money that your son will heed from you?

[01:08:23] Karen Holland: Uh, well, you know, we, we have this saying, it’s, it’s translated from Latin, but “Know thyself and nothing to excess.” And it’s just, when you know what your non-negotiables are, it’s actually really easy to make decisions ’cause the, the line is just right there and you know what you’ll step over and, and what you won’t.

[01:08:43] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:08:43] Karen Holland: And, and similarly, like most challenges in life are a- about excess. And it, and it’s not just excessive, you know, like it’s not just too much food, it’s too much dieting. It’s not, it’s not, um, you know, too much partying, it could be too much rest. Like there, you know, everything is a balance-

[01:09:01] John Lanza: Mm-hmm

[01:09:01] Karen Holland: … and so just accepting that you, you really kinda wanna hit the center when it comes to health and wellbeing choices and money choices. Most of the time the center won’t let you down.

[01:09:13] John Lanza: Uh, you’ve been invoking your mother, I’ll invoke my mother because she has been saying it from day one, “Moderation, moderation, [laughs] moderation.”

[01:09:20] Karen Holland: I mean, it’s-

[01:09:23] John Lanza: And, uh, she listens, so she’ll appreciate that.

[01:09:25] Karen Holland: Okay.

[01:09:26] John Lanza: Now we’re finally, all the sons are finally coming around and understanding, “Oh, yeah, that’s why you kept saying that, ’cause it makes sense.”

[01:09:32] Karen Holland: W- what did I say, your parents get a lot smarter the older you get? [laughs]

[01:09:36] John Lanza: [laughs] No doubt about that. All right, so Karen, if you could transmit a message that everyone would see, sky-written on a billboard wherever, what would it say?

[01:09:47] Karen Holland: You got, you gotta know, John. Think before you buy. It’s so easy. It is so easy. And, and, you know, we’re, we’re getting ready to go to the National Educator Conference and you know our battle cry is, thinking before buying is an easy to teach, powerful and sticky life skill. And we can give it to kids everywhere for nothing. So, let’s do it.

[01:10:10] John Lanza: I like it. I like sticky. Sticky is a very good point there. All right, other than your own materials, what is the one kind of money smarts book, podcast, tool, media that you go back to or you gift the most?

[01:10:26] Karen Holland: You know, I mean, I get asked this question a lot-

[01:10:30] John Lanza: [laughs]

[01:10:31] Karen Holland: … so, uh, no, but like by parents and educators. I mean-

[01:10:34] John Lanza: Yeah, right

[01:10:34] Karen Holland: … like almost everywhere I go people are like, “Okay, is there a book?” So, there are lots of good ones. I mean, I will, I will tell you I’ve gifted your book. I’ve gifted Robin’s book, The Wisest Investment.

[01:10:44] John Lanza: Well, thank you.

[01:10:44] Karen Holland: I really like this Adam Ferguson’s, The, The Things You Have To Do Before I Buy You A Phone. Um, I like Die With Zero, Bill Perkins. I mean, I would say Age & Stage, you know, because I now have an a- an adult son. And so, you know, our friends were all thinking about, you know, i- if, if we’re gonna share with them, w- how… What’s the best way to share with them? I really like Jim Grubman’s Strangers In Paradise. When I was listening to your episode with Barb Coloroso, I was thinking, you know, she talks about the jellyfish and the brick wall and then, you know, you want, you want of course the balance again.

[01:11:18] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:11:18] Karen Holland: Jim Grubman has a similar metaphor. So, um, he talks about if you, if you work really hard and you create some personal financial peace of mind, he said there’s sort of three, three possible responses to that. And, um, and he uses the metaphor of the, um, mi- the middle class compass. Have you read his book? Do you know what I’m talking about?

[01:11:40] John Lanza: I have not. No, no, no.

[01:11:41] Karen Holland: It’s fantastic. So he said, um, the avoider can’t, like, loosen their grip on the middle class compass. So, even though the avoider has created personal financial peace of mind, you know, they, they can only buy bread off the quick sale table. You know, they, they just, they cannot let go, right?

[01:12:00] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:12:00] Karen Holland: And on the opposite end of the spectrum, he says the assimilator, he says takes the middle class compass and throws it out the window of the Ferrari as they’re barreling [laughs] down the highway. And he said, “What you want is an integrator. You want children who learn how to earn and spend money to solve problems.”

[01:12:20] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:12:20] Karen Holland: “You want them to just know that middle class compass is in their pocket. Oh, where’s that compass? Oh, right, there’s my north star.”

[01:12:26] John Lanza: Yeah.

[01:12:27] Karen Holland: So, that’s a, that’s another great book. There are a lot of great books. But I will say, I’ve… Probably the one I’ve given away the most of, and again it’s an age and stage thing, is Fred Selinger’s The Missing Link From College to Career and Beyond.

[01:12:39] John Lanza: Okay.

[01:12:40] Karen Holland: And what I love about that book is its 27 granular chapters on what to do from your first postgraduate paycheck forward. He’s very pithy. He taught the number one undergraduate course at U Cal, Berkeley.

[01:12:54] John Lanza: Okay.

[01:12:54] Karen Holland: And he says, “There’s only one problem with paychecks. They don’t come with instructions.”

[01:12:59] John Lanza: [laughs]

[01:13:02] Karen Holland: So, that’s a good point.

[01:13:02] John Lanza: That’s a great point. I’m gonna definitely look that up because, uh, as you know-

[01:13:06] Karen Holland: Yes

[01:13:06] John Lanza: … uh, our oldest has, uh, just got her first job, so that’s a, that’s great. I will look that one up and, um, what was the other… Jim?

[01:13:14] Karen Holland: Jim Grubman’s Strangers In Paradise.

[01:13:16] John Lanza: Okay. Yeah, the idea of, uh, it sounds like, you know, u- learning to use money as a tool is, uh, such a core, core part of the process. All right, so-

[01:13:26] Karen Holland: That’s what it is

[01:13:26] John Lanza: … Karen, we, we have, uh, you’ve gotten through the gauntlet of the fast and the fun round.

[01:13:31] Karen Holland: Okay, [laughs] great.

[01:13:32] John Lanza: … um, I’m, I have, I’m impressed. And your answer to the Peter Thiel question was terrific, and this was, I’m not surprised. So, how can people find you and Gifting Sense online?

[01:13:43] Karen Holland: Well, they, they can type Gifting Sense. It’s, it’s a wordplay, S-E-N-S-E, not C-E-N-T-S, into any browser on any device, and we’re usually the first thing that pops up. We do have social media handles. I must confess, social media is not my milieus, but we are, are trying to be a little better about it. But every, really, everything you need is on the site. And, and I, can I give a plug for frequently asked questions? Somebody just told me-

[01:14:10] John Lanza: Please, please, yes

[01:14:10] Karen Holland: … “Nobody reads the frequently asked questions.” And I’m like, “Well, then why did we spend all this time and effort answering the frequently asked questions?” So, we have a For Parents page, a For Teachers page, a How It Works page. We, we have a Press and Recognition page so you can learn about other people’s experiences. Like, everything you need, really, is on the site. By the same token, if you have a question, reach out via the Contact Us form. We respond to that thing every day. Actually, just before I got on today, I got a pencil order from a Brownie troop in, in Texas. You know, we sh- we ship pencils to kids everywhere because we… Where’s my… I have, like, of course, I have these pencils everywhere. There’s no, there’s no knapsack or drawer from which these pencils do not fall in my world. And all the kids get a pencil, and it says, “What’s the DIMS Score,” right on the side. And we finish every workshop with a smiling reminder to sharpen your pencil and practice slow spending until it becomes a habit. People can order the pencils online, and we just got one from a Brownie troop in Texas, which I kinda love.

[01:15:13] John Lanza: Well, very nice. You can plug anything. You’re a public good, Karen, so uh… [laughs].

[01:15:18] Karen Holland: Thank you.

[01:15:18] John Lanza: How could I say no to that?

[01:15:19] Karen Holland: Thank you. Thank you.

[01:15:21] John Lanza: Well, I appreciate your time. This was a lot of fun to have this conversation. And I, I just, I can’t stress enough to parents out there that you should definitely check out Gifting Sense because, like I said just a few minutes ago, it’s something that not only will your kids learn from, but you will learn from. And it will really be helpful f- for them in learning how to make better money choices. So, thank you, Karen.

[01:15:47] Karen Holland: Well, thank you, John. I, I really appreciate you, your time as well. You’re a very well-read, thoughtful guy, and I appreciate the opportunity for this conversation.

[01:15:59] John Lanza: Before we wrap, a quick note. This is the last episode I’ll be recording for a little while. I’m taking a brief pause to rethink and refresh the show so I can come back with conversations that are even more useful to you. The beauty of these episodes is that they hold up, so if you’re new here or if you want to revisit past guests, there’s a ton to explore in the archives. And thanks, as always, for listening and being a part of this community. There will be more good conversations to come. [instrumental music] Thank you for listening to The Art of Allowance podcast. If you liked this podcast, I think you’ll really like my Money Smart Mondays email newsletter. There’s no cost, and you’ll find out all about The Money Mammals to help get your kids excited about money smarts and ideas from The Art of Allowance to help empower parents just like you. Just swing on over to themoneymammals.com, click on that green button on the bottom right of the screen, and become a subscriber today. I hope you’ll join me on the money-smart journey.

[01:17:13] John Lanza: [instrumental music]