“Kids are just adept at technology. They know the latest things because they’re on it all the time. […] And so we have to empower them with their own skills.”
— Diana Graber
In this Art of Allowance Podcast episode, host John Lanza speaks with guest Diana Graber about the challenges of and the strategies for raising kids in a digital world. They discuss understanding children’s developmental readiness for technology, emphasizing ethical thinking in digital spaces and balancing the risks and the benefits of an online presence. Diana highlights the importance of teaching teens to protect their finances digitally via privacy measures and scam avoidance and the dangers of oversharing online. (Both kids and adults are guilty!) She and John also explore the need for parents to advocate for digital education in schools, especially through peer learning opportunities.
Diana Graber is the author of Raising Humans in a Digital World: Helping Kids Build a Healthy Relationship with Technology and the founder of Cyberwise and Cyber Civics, two organizations devoted to digital literacy. She developed and still teaches Cyber Civics, the popular middle school digital literacy program currently in use in the US and across the globe. Diana has appeared on The Today Show and NBC Nightly News as well as in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. She has a B.A. in Communication Studies from UCLA and an M.A. in Media Psychology and Social Change from Fielding Graduate University.
Links (From the Show)
- Connecting with Diana
- Diana on LinkedIn
- Diana’s book, Raising Humans in a Digital World: Helping Kids Build a Healthy Relationship with Technology
- Diana’s digital literacy program, Cyber Civics
- Cyber Civis on Facebook, Instagram and X
- Diana’s digital literacy organization, Cyberwise
- Cyberwise on Facebook, Instagram and X
- Digital- and Money-Smart Mentions
- Jonathan Haidt’s book, The Anxious Generation
- John’s newsletter on Haidt’s four norms
- Michele Borba’s book, UnSelfie: Why Empathetic Kids Succeed in Our All-About-Me World
Show Notes (Find what’s most interesting to you!)
- Diana’s book’s title explains her passion. [3:05]
- What can you do to help your children use tech well? [3:52]
- The real dangers of school-age kids’ going online [4:38]
- Helping children develop “ethical thinking” [6:44]
- Why bans don’t work when it comes to digital literacy [9:19]
- How do you teach kids that something advertised as “free” online really has a price? [10:12]
- The efficacy of digital literacy in the classroom [12:47]
- Crafting a positive online persona [15:02]
- Diana explains her concept of “oversharenting.” [17:03]
- Why Diana wants a “do over” of her money-smart journey [18:47]
- Basic starting points for keeping information safe online [21:14]
- The worst-case scenario: sextortion [23:06]
- Where are teens most vulnerable online? [25:15]
- Diana shares best practices for teens to protect their personal and financial information. [29:03]
- How can you help your children avoid oversharing online? [31:33]
- Diana’s reframing of our mission to engage kids and empower parents [33:12]
- Googling yourself: a family activity related to digital reputation [35:20]
- The three literacies [37:44]
- Digital empowerment takes education. [39:19]
- Investing in face-to-face communication [40:30]
- Diana’s online and offline advice [41:36]
- A book recommendation for raising empathetic kids [41:58]
- Reaching Diana online [43:00]
- Make sure your child is being taught digital literacy! [43:37]
Click here for the full transcript.
If you liked this episode …
Ready to start a conversation with your kids about media literacy? Media Literacy Now CEO and Founder Erin McNeill shares strategies for doing so. And just like Diana and John discuss, manipulation is a great starting point. Listen in at 37:32 for all the details, or watch the corresponding short.
Want more resources to protect your kids online? Josh Golin, the Executive Director of Fairplay, shares many recommendations to protect children from both the obvious and the subtle pitfalls of materialism and social media. For a preview of his suggestions, stream this video.
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Full Transcript
This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 76, featuring host John Lanza and guest Diana Graber.
00:00:00,119 [John Lanza]
Hello, and welcome to Episode 76 of The Art of Allowance Podcast. I’m your host, John Lanza. Hey, parents, I wanted to give you a quick heads-up. This episode may include topics or language that might not be suitable for younger listeners, so if you’re listening with your tween or teen, you might want to preview it first.
00:00:22,219 [Diana Graber]
And then I- I say engaging the parents because, within the curriculum, we have these send-home parent letters that have activities that families do together, and parents often learn a lot through that. And it engages them to talk to their kids about all these things, which is so important because, as I relayed that really sad story earlier, you know, those two poor boys didn’t feel like they had a parent they could tell, [laughs] you know? And so, we want to engage parents so that when and if something bad does happen, you’re the first place they go. [upbeat music plays]
00:00:55,739 [John Lanza]
In this episode, I speak with guest Diana Graber about the challenges of and the strategies for raising kids in a digital world. We discuss understanding children’s developmental readiness for technology, emphasizing ethical thinking in digital spaces, and balancing the risks and the benefits of an online presence. Diana highlights the importance of teaching teens to protect their finances digitally via privacy measures and scam avoidance and the dangers of oversharing online. Both kids and adults are guilty here, so we must listen up. We also explore the need for parents to advocate for digital education in schools, especially through peer learning opportunities. Diana Graber is the author of the book Raising Humans in a Digital World: Helping Kids Build a Healthy Relationship with Technology, and she’s the founder of Cyberwise and CyberCivics, two organizations devoted to digital literacy. She developed and still teaches CyberCivics, the popular middle school digital literacy program currently in use in the US and across the globe. Diana has appeared on the Today Show and NBC Nightly News, as well as in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. She has a BA in Communication Studies from UCLA and an MA in Media Psychology and Social Change from Fielding Graduate University. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Diana Graber. [upbeat music plays] Before we dive directly into the show, I wanted to let you know that I have a free email newsletter I send out every Monday, and it’s a great way to make sure you never miss an episode of The Art of Allowance podcast. You can find out more at the end of today’s conversation, including how to sign up. And now, on with the show. Today, I am speaking with Diana Graber. Welcome, Diana.
00:03:04,279 [Diana Graber]
Thank you for having me.
00:03:05,379 [John Lanza]
Well, I’m excited to have you on the show to talk about how we can keep our kids safe online and really learn to deal with the online world in a way that works best for them and for us. And I think-
00:03:16,039 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:03:16,099 [John Lanza]
…that the best way to kick things off is have you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work.
00:03:20,819 [Diana Graber]
Okay, sure. Well, I’m the author of a book called, um, Raising Humans in a Digital World: Helping Kids Build a Healthy Relationship with Technology, and, uh, that pretty much sums up what I do or what my passion is these days. In addition to that, I’m the founder of two companies. The first one, CyberCivics, provides digital literacy curriculum to schools, and the second, Cyberwise, is a resource site for parents of digital kids.
00:03:43,079 [John Lanza]
Very nice. And I- What I appreciate is that your focus is very similar to ours in a different domain, and that-
00:03:49,279 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:03:49,319 [John Lanza]
…is engaging kids, you know, and empowering parents. I want to know, how can we be more intentional about raising our kids with technology in ways that are developmentally appropriate so that they can have a healthy relationship with technology kind of going forward?
00:04:04,919 [Diana Graber]
Right. Well, you- I think you used the exact right word there, “developmentally appropriate.” That is so much at the core of what we can do to help our kids use technology well. I mean, as we both know, kids are handed cell phones so young these days, and, you know, you’re handing them a connection to the whole world [laughs] and all the people in it, right? And this is usually before a kid’s brain is even able to make decisions or know the consequences of their acts. So, I think the longer you can delay that and the more education you can give a child before you hand them this device, the better outcome for everybody.
00:04:38,079 [John Lanza]
Yeah. There does seem to be much more of an awareness, uh, amongst parents, uh, about the importance of delaying this, and, if not the technology, at least the adoption of, say, social media. But why don’t you lay out what are the real dangers for young kids using technology early?
00:04:58,619 [Diana Graber]
Well, gosh, you know, it’s funny that you say an awareness, ’cause I think there’s more awareness of parents, but there’s still, you know, so many kids that sign up for social media before age 13, because social media companies make it so darn easy to do. You know, a nine-year-old’s pretty good at math when they need to make sure that they pick a birth date that makes them 13, so all of a sudden, they become a math genius, right? So, [laughs] we haven’t solved that problem yet. Um, but when we do have kids wait a little bit longer, you know, I mean, we know from eons of research on kids’ brains that it takes about 12 to 13 years of life before they can develop abstract thinking skills, and abstract thinking is, you know, the prerequisite to ethical thinking. And nearly everything you do online requires the ability to engage in ethical thinking. [laughs] So, I mean, just think about it, like cyberbullying, being mean to somebody or sharing a picture that’s gonna hurt somebody’s feelings, all of those things require a higher order of thinking that, you know, a, a nine-year-old just does not have. So, I just think, you know, we get mad at kids at that age when they make a mistake online, and it’s really not their fault. They’re just not ready.
00:06:04,507 [John Lanza]
Yeah. I guess what I mean about the awareness is, I’m sure you’re familiar with Jonathan Haidt’s book, The Anxious Generation.
00:06:11,327 [Diana Graber]
Mm-hmm.
00:06:11,347 [John Lanza]
I haven’t, I haven’t read the book, but I listen to him on podcasts, and I’ve noticed a- my kids are now in college, but he has… My, one of my brothers has younger kids, and their school is putting a b- there’s a ban on the cellphones in the school.
00:06:25,768 [Diana Graber]
Hm.
00:06:25,788 [John Lanza]
And there’s… He’s not the only person that has mentioned that. And so, there does seem to be this awareness that’s bubbling up. And I think a, a lot of it’s probably coming from, you know, your work, [laughs] over time, that’s, that’s being ma- that’s driving this kind of awareness. But I, one thing I would love for you to go into a little bit, can you go deeper on this ethical thinking concept? I think that would be useful to know a little bit more about that.
00:06:50,567 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. So, I mean, my background’s in dev- developmental psychology, and I, I think that’s what’s so interesting about thinking about kids and how they use things online. And, you know, I, I go back to… W- when I see problems with kids that are young, like maybe they’ll do a TikTok challenge that’s mean or s- dangerous or unsafe, or they’ll post a picture of a friend that’s really unflattering and hurts that friend’s feelings, well, again, that requires, like, thinking, like, “What are the consequences of my actions, [laughs] and is this an ethical thing to do?” And all that stuff, it’s really hard to think that way. I mean, some people are never able [laughs] to think that way.
00:07:23,707 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:07:24,067 [Diana Graber]
But certainly for a nine, 10, or 11 year old, you know, they’re just not there yet. They don’t know the consequences of their actions. Everything’s in terms of how it affects them, and it’s really hard for them to think about how it impacts another person. And then when you wanna get into the thinking about, you know, uh, there’s other s- parts of the brain that people say it takes till age 25 to develop. So of course we’re not gonna hold off technology till then, but if we can at least do it till 12 or 13, I think we do our kids, our kids a great service.
00:07:52,507 [John Lanza]
Yeah, and I think you’re, uh, you’re right to… When you talk about the social media companies, the thing that we really need is actual age-gating that works.
00:08:01,307 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:08:01,547 [John Lanza]
Um, but it is this kind of collective action program, and it’s gonna require all parents to p- uh, it just requires, uh, more than just… ‘Cause you can’t be the only parent, or a minori- a small minority parent, um, trying to make that happen.
00:08:17,627 [Diana Graber]
Right.
00:08:17,647 [John Lanza]
Because I know, you know, this happened with our kids, is like they will say, and m- maybe rightfully so, that it’s gonna affect their social lives. And how do you address that in a way that’s effective if there are so many people that are allowing their kids to go on social media way younger than they should be on there? If, i- uh, if not, uh, not, not just social media, but have phones. Um, but on the other side, I, you know, there’s a beauty of technology. Like, I wanna, uh, I’d like to have you kind of compliment the dangers of technologies. What are the good things that we feel that are happening online for kids?
00:08:53,547 [Diana Graber]
Well, yeah. I think there’s a lot of good things. And I hope… You know, I, kind of my, my thing is I don’t like to focus on the dangers, because I think they’re easily dealt with [laughs]. And one of, one of the ways is to delay a little bit. But the most important way is to educate, and that’s really what we’re all about. That’s why we developed Cyber Civics, which is our in-school curriculum, teaching kids digital literacy so that when they do get the tools, they know all the pitfalls and they’re prepared to use them well. It’s so simple. And, and really what drives me crazy is honestly, reading about all these cellphone bans or banning social media, ban, ban, ban. I mean, come on people, we know bans do not work [laughs] unless they go hand in hand with educating. ‘Cause you cannot ban the cellphone from the face of the planet. It’s not gonna happen. So if we want our kids to use these well, we have to teach them digital literacy, like financial literal literacy. You gotta know the skills, you gotta know how to use these things well before you get them in your hand. And then, oh my gosh, there’s so many things they can do. Like, they are great research tools. Great way to connect with people if you wanna learn new things. Great way to go on YouTube and discover interests that you didn’t even know you had. [laughs] I mean, th- the list is endless. So let’s open those opportunities for our kids, but do it in a way that’s gonna keep them safe.
00:10:05,427 [John Lanza]
Well, good. I appreciate you, uh, talking about all the, uh, the wonderful things that, uh, technology has to offer.
00:10:12,867 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:10:12,887 [John Lanza]
One concept, though, that comes up a lot is, and I was just listening to a podcast today about this idea that, uh, you know, things are free online, right? But they’re not really free, right? We’re paying them, pay, we’re, kids are paying for it. We’re, we’re paying with whatever it is, whether we’re paying for it with privacy, uh, data, any of that. How do we teach our kids that free online has a price? You know, once, once we’ve made that decision that they’re gonna use technology, how do we get that across to them?
00:10:42,287 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s, that’s what we teach them, that nothing online is free. You pay for it with your personal information. So we have a whole series of lessons on personal information and what companies do with it. I mean, there’s so many lessons, you know, from one where we kind of trick them and say, “Oh, we’re gonna have people spying you in school, and how do you feel about that?” And they’re like, “We hate that.” We’re like, “Oh, really? Well, that’s what happens online.” [laughs] So we, we start that way. And then we have a series of lessons where we have them read the privacy policies. Um, this year they’re reading TikTok and Snapchat, and I love doing that because, you know, it’s long and it’s boring, but we teach them the vocabulary first, and then we give them the long terms. And they do it in teams, so every team has a page to, that they have to look for the terms they just used, and then they have to s- discuss it in their teams. And the beauty of doing that is they come back to me, they’re like, “Mrs. Graber, you would not believe what Snapchat does. Like, they never get rid of the stuff. They keep all the pictures.” Or, “You wouldn’t believe what TikTok does. They do biometrics. Do you know what that is?” [laughs]
00:11:40,047 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:11:40,047 [Diana Graber]
And so when they… Like, it empowers them with knowledge to be mad, you know? It’s like, “What?” And then from there, we can move into lessons on, you know, what a filter bubble is. Like, okay, now that they know all this about you, guess what they’re doing? They’re deciding what you like. And like what 13 year old wants an adult telling them what they like? [laughs] Not one. So again, like you’re tapping into that…. developmental vulnerability and curiosity. And that really turns them on to being more aware of, like, “What am I giving away online? I’m gonna be a lot more careful about it.”
00:12:15,600 [John Lanza]
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because, uh, Erin McNeil, who I interviewed, and, and she’s the one who connected us, uh, and she’s, her focus is on media literacy-
00:12:24,959 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:12:24,979 [John Lanza]
… was saying that, uh, you know, kids really love having these conversations because they find out-
00:12:30,680 [Diana Graber]
Oh.
00:12:30,700 [John Lanza]
Yeah. They find out they’re being manipulated, and they’re not, don’t love being manipulated, but they love finding out how they can avoid being manipulated. So you’re kind of introducing them to something that really is going to pay off for them in the long run. I think that’s, it’s really wonderful. I, I, I have a question. So if I’m a parent listening right now, and I’m thinking, “Well, you know, how do I get this into a classroom that my kid has?” Or, if I can’t do that, “What can I do by myself as a parent to try to get this information across to my kids?”
00:13:04,399 [Diana Graber]
Well, I love that question because I think every parent in America [laughs] should make sure their school is teaching digital or media literacy. A lot of states now, as Erin probably told you, require it. There’s laws on the books that say kids have to get these lessons, but yet a lot of them are not. So, I tell parents all the time, “You want your kids to be smart online and use technology well? Pick up the phone and call your school principal and say, ‘Are you teaching this to my kids? And if not, why not?'” That’s number one. So many, so many of the schools that use Cyber Civics, it happened because of one parent, one parent saying, “Lookit, this is… We, we can’t do this without our kids learning this.” And I would say, you know, parents can teach this at home. We ha- we, uh, offer it for homeschoolers too, but it’s way more effective in a classroom. It’s hard for parents to teach this because there’s a lot to it, and a lot of parents didn’t really grow up with digital literacy, so it’s easier to do it with peers. And those lessons I quickly described to you, the reason they work so well is because kids are talking about it amongst each other.
00:14:03,639 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:14:04,180 [Diana Graber]
And that, that does a couple things. I mean, first of all, they love it ’cause it’s their everyday li- you know, who doesn’t want to talk about the stuff they do on their cell phones, right? They think they’re experts.
00:14:11,940 [John Lanza]
Yeah. [laughs]
00:14:11,960 [Diana Graber]
But secondly, a lot of kids are dealing with stuff, like, whether it be cyberbullying, digital drama, hate speech, sextortion. I mean, there’s a lot, and this is where it comes out. Like, we talk about it in the classroom. They compare notes. They help each other. They watch out for each other. They create those norms in person that they then take into their online world. So, it’s just, it’s a no-brainer to teach this stuff. And, you know, the third thing I will say about it, it’s literacy, [laughs] you know? We teach our kids-
00:14:40,700 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:14:40,720 [Diana Graber]
… we tell our kids we want them to go to school to be literate. Digital literacy is today’s literacy, so it’s just incumbent upon our educational system to provide this for students.
00:14:51,919 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, we’re t- we’ve talked about financial literacy-
00:14:54,819 [Diana Graber]
Oh
00:14:54,880 [John Lanza]
… and we’ve talked about media literacy and tech literacy. I mean, these really are the things our kids need to learn. I am curious, how do you… ‘Cause you were talking about, you know, kids getting online, and they’re, they’re, they’re creating an online persona, so how do we help kids craft a positive online reputation? Because we know it’s gonna kind of, anything they’re doing is going to kind of stick with them.
00:15:20,559 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:15:21,339 [John Lanza]
Which seems really unfair for a… [laughs] When I think back at, you know, what I was like when I was 13, 14, and 15, but it is reality, so how do we help them-
00:15:30,359 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:15:30,379 [John Lanza]
… craft that positive online reputation?
00:15:31,899 [Diana Graber]
Well, again, those are a series of lessons we have. You know, what is a digital reputation? And everything you do online stays online forever and can be seen by everybody, you know? And so, we show them how that happens. It’s not just what they post about themselves, but in a lot of cases, it’s what their parents and grandparents have already posted about them. I hear a lot about that because that’s l- that contributes to a child’s reputation. And, you know, usually kids, preteen, they’re really, you know, sensitive about how they appear to others, and so for them, a lot of that’s cringey, and it’s hard for them to, you know, walk away from, so there’s that. And then on top of that, like, when kids post pictures of one another and tag each other, they’re contributing to each other’s reputations, so a lot of times if they post something that they might be sarcastic or they think it’s funny, it could be damaging to their friend’s reputation. So all of these are a series of lessons that we take ’em through. We play games and do activities so they can understand how, how impactful their reputation is. For example, in one of our lessons, they pretend to be college admissions officers, and they have to review the applicant’s, two applicants, to give them a, a scholarship, and so we’ve collected all this background information of what these kids have posted, and they have to go through it and decide, if they were making that decision, who would they give the scholarship to? So, just doing those games and playing, doing those scenarios and discussing it, they remember those lessons, you know? And hopefully-
00:16:54,599 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah
00:16:55,019 [Diana Graber]
… when they go online, they re- “Oh, yeah, I remember that I learned that, so I’m gonna be a little more careful about what I post online.”
00:17:02,659 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You have a great term in your book, uh, this concept of oversharenting. Um, can you explain that? ‘Cause you kind of, you mentioned the-
00:17:13,559 [Diana Graber]
Yes
00:17:13,659 [John Lanza]
… the, the, what, what the concept is, but talk a little bit about that and why it’s a problem for kids.
00:17:20,259 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. Well, that’s when parents or grandparents or well-meaning relatives post a lot about their children, um, and when they do that, you know, that becomes part of that child’s digital reputation. And as I mentioned earlier, for a lot of kids, I hear it, and they’re like, “I’m so embarrassed. Like, my grandma put this picture, and now people see it, and it’s like, what do I do?” I mean, that’s distressing. And so I just think it’s courtesy for all of us, no matter if it’s a child, adult h- friend, you know, if you’re gonna post something about somebody, just ask ahead of time. Be like, “Are you okay with this?” And, you know, if they are, post it. If they’re not, be respectful. I’ve done that with my kids since they were little, you know, and to this day, they’re both in their 20s, and they still don’t let me post anything about them. [laughs]
00:18:04,919 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:18:05,299 [Diana Graber]
And I, I respect that, you know? It’s their reputation.
00:18:08,699 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:18:08,819 [Diana Graber]
And I wanna be respectful as they ask me, and there’s things I don’t want them to post…. I just think as human beings, you know, that’s a really easy way to be respectful of one another’s privacy.
00:18:20,976 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Plus that shows, that’s good modeling too, as a parent, if you’re-
00:18:24,775 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:18:24,796 [John Lanza]
… if you’re showing that respect for your kids, ’cause we’ve crossed over. Our kids are, you know, 19 and 21, and, and they don’t like s- stuff being shared without them knowing. And, uh-
00:18:34,955 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:18:35,096 [John Lanza]
… and it is a good, it’s a, it’s a good way to show them, “Yes, y- you have to show people digital respect, uh, the same-“
00:18:40,795 [Diana Graber]
Exactly
00:18:40,956 [John Lanza]
“… way that you want them to show digital respect to other folks when they’re posting.”
00:18:45,036 [Diana Graber]
Right. Exactly.
00:18:47,895 [John Lanza]
So before we jump into some questions about kids and online financial activities, we have to talk about this. This is the Art-
00:18:54,196 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:18:54,255 [John Lanza]
… of Allowance Project-
00:18:55,356 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:18:55,455 [John Lanza]
… um, uh, podcast. And I just want to ask you, kind of, uh, just to get into, get ourselves rolling here, how did you teach your kids about money? And importantly, what I’d love to know is, how, and, and that, you, we, in this show, Diana, we get fairly granular, so if you want to talk about like, “We started allowance, or we didn’t, or we, you know, they started businesses,” what- ev- that information is really helpful, I think, for our, the parents who are listening. But I also want to know how you introduced them to money and technology, um, and digital money, once you got to that point.
00:19:31,315 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. Uh, you know, before I jump into that, ’cause there’s a lot to talk about-
00:19:34,815 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:19:34,835 [Diana Graber]
… I just want to say, I don’t feel like my husband and I did a great job. Because my par- my kids, now in their 20s, they’re, they always tell me, and they, they’re college educated [laughs], you know? And they’re like, “What, why did no one ever teach me about taxes or, you know”-
00:19:49,715 [John Lanza]
Hm
00:19:49,875 [Diana Graber]
“… st- the stock market? Like, why did I not get classes in this?” And I think that’s another great failing of education [laughs], you know? These are practical skills that every person needs. And, well, I’m still helping them. I mean, I spent a day with my daughter helping her with her taxes, helping her sign up for, you know, health insurance, helping her with car ins- you know, all the little financial things that are so important, but, you know, they still need my help with it because no one ever really walked them through the steps. So-
00:20:15,515 [John Lanza]
Yup
00:20:15,635 [Diana Graber]
… I’m not a great role model when it comes to that kind of [laughs] parental-
00:20:18,675 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:20:19,575 [Diana Graber]
… education, honestly.
00:20:20,275 [John Lanza]
Well, yeah, but you’re a great mo- role model in the sense that you opened up a conversation with your kids-
00:20:24,675 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:20:24,795 [John Lanza]
… so that they can have that conversation.
00:20:26,995 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:20:27,015 [John Lanza]
You know, and even if, I mean, we’re all, we’re all parents. This is all an experiment. We’re trying to figure out how to do this. Nobody told us how to do it. And we’re all kind of carrying around whatever shame it might be about things we wish we had done better, but the only thing we can do now is share the things we wish we had done better in a way that the parents who are listening can do a better job raising their kids, right? So-
00:20:50,335 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:20:50,515 [John Lanza]
… um, I totally understand where you’re coming from. Uh, it’s, uh, the d- a day doesn’t go by that I don’t think, “Oh, gosh, I wish I had done that.” When I, I have these conversations about money with s- with so many money experts and parents, and so, I mean, in every conversation, it’s like, “Oh, what a great idea. I wish my kids [laughs] were younger, so we could implement that idea.”
00:21:11,415 [Diana Graber]
Yes. I want it to be
00:21:11,535 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:21:11,795 [Diana Graber]
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:12,595 [John Lanza]
So, so with, with that as a backdrop, um, I would just love to know, you know, anything about the process that you went through that you feel comfortable talking about in terms of kind of getting them started, and then, to the extent that you did, trans- transitioning them to the digital money side and how you helped protect them as they started to work in the kind of digital domain.
00:21:36,535 [Diana Graber]
Yeah, so that, that is really a big emphasis, not only in my parenting but what has translated into our curriculum, is just, what do you share online and what do you not share online? And a, a, a lot of purpose, not only because of your reputation and all that, but there’s a lot of sc- scammers online. There’s a lot of ways that you can lose money or give money away online, and that starts very young. I mean, that’s, just, we do Online Safety 101. And I pulled it up just because all of this applies to money, you know? We teach the kids, never share any personal information online, your birthday, your Social Security number, your phone number, none of that.
00:22:11,755 [John Lanza]
Yup.
00:22:12,315 [Diana Graber]
Keep an eye out for emails that look strange and unfamiliar. Don’t respond to text messages from numbers you don’t know. Never click or open attachments from unknown emails or phone numbers. Be suspicious of incredible online bargains or sales. Pay attention to your feelings. Practice skepticism. Always think twice before you accept an offer that seems too good to be true. I mean, th- those are really basic starting points for keeping your information safe. And then, you know, we can go d- more deeply into the kind of schemes that kids are getting drawn into, because it’s, this is a big issue. Kids are, teenagers are the number one target for scammers that are looking to try to make a buck online. And that’s because they are a great market, ’cause they share, share, share all the time without thinking.
00:22:59,355 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:22:59,375 [Diana Graber]
And a lot of them fall into these traps. So, I would love to talk about those.
00:23:03,815 [John Lanza]
Please, go deeper.
00:23:05,315 [Diana Graber]
Go deeper, okay. Well, the first one I wanted to talk about is, it’s uncomfortable for parents to think about, but it is a really important thing to know about, and that’s sextortion.
00:23:14,855 [John Lanza]
Hm.
00:23:15,235 [Diana Graber]
The reason I bring that up is, you probably know this, the FBI issued a warning last year. Sextortion schemes, particularly targeted at teenage boys. And what it wor- uh, the way it works is usually someone’ll have a relationship with somebody on some online platform. It could be a gaming app. It could be Instagram. It could be Snapchat, somewhere. And they’ll have like, that’s, this little flirtation, and then that flirtation will, they’ll say, “Hey, let’s move to a more private place,” maybe a Google Hangout, Discord, somewhere. And then perhaps that person will send some, you know, half-naked picture and say, “Hey, will you share some pictures of yourself?” And
00:23:52,535 [Diana Graber]
in, in some really sad cases, um, you know, kids have turned around and sent those pictures. And then all of a sudden that person says, “Hey, I’ve got these nude pictures of you, and I’m gonna share it with everybody in your address book that I was able to access, unless you send me an Amazon gift card. And you gotta send it in 24 hours,” or, so that’s how these schemes work. They’re financial schemes…. and often the people perpetrating it are not even in the country. They’re offshore, so it’s really hard to track them down. But I- I bring that up ’cause that’s like worst case scenario, but it happens. And I mean, there were two cases last year where this happened to teenage boys, and the teenage boys were so humiliated, and they were too embarrassed to tell a parent or an adult, and they committed suicide.
00:24:38,131 [John Lanza]
Wow.
00:24:38,391 [Diana Graber]
So I mean, that’s- that’s frigging tragic. I mean, the fact that there was not an adult in their life they could turn to, or that they felt like they’d done something wrong. You know? This- these are sophisticated schemes targeting teens. So I just… It’s something we talk about in our curriculum, because I want every teen to be savvy to it and to be really careful who they befriend online.
00:25:01,911 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:25:03,352 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that is, uh… I- I didn’t realize how big of a deal that was, and I appreciate you sharing that. And especially the- the financial side of what’s going on with the sextortion.
00:25:12,211 [Diana Graber]
Yeah, it’s a money scheme.
00:25:13,711 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:14,911 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:25:15,271 [John Lanza]
So where are teens most vul- or most vulnerable online outside of that, regarding kind of banking and financial activities?
00:25:23,291 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. So that’s, you know, again, that’s a very… Even though there’s this warning from the FBI, this does not happen like every day.
00:25:31,291 [John Lanza]
Right.
00:25:31,311 [Diana Graber]
Although, I will say, in the kids that I’ve taught, I often ask, “How many of you have been approached by a stranger online?” And half the class, hands go up, so-
00:25:39,491 [John Lanza]
Wow
00:25:39,691 [Diana Graber]
… we are getting approached by strangers in different ways. So, you know, this is… The elemental thing to have a child know is don’t share personal information. And then, this is also important, because kids love to share their passwords with each other, because then they can check-
00:25:54,411 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:25:54,431 [Diana Graber]
… into their, each other’s accounts. They think it’s fun. That is another big no-no, because passwords, that is our first line of protection for financial information, for banking information, so we never want to share our passwords with anybody except a parent. So that’s another- another big thing. And then a lot of times, what kids are getting targeted with are on their social media apps. There’s like online shopping scams, or maybe there’s a fun survey and you fill that out, and while filling it out, you’re divulging personal information. So there’s all these little schemes that are, you know, trying to tap into things that they think teens will find fun, to try to extract as much personal information as they can. So I’ll-
00:26:31,031 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:26:31,051 [Diana Graber]
… go through what those are and the warning things for kids to look out for so that they don’t fall for those traps.
00:26:37,391 [John Lanza]
Yeah. I mean, there are even programs that are, you know, trying to educate kids about financial education through paying them to be financially educated, and it begs the question. I’m like, is that… Are you teaching them to be financially educated, or are you teaching them to game the system to win whatever prizes there are? Because we know how savvy teens are about figuring out this stuff, uh, uh, in order to get to the end goal without having to cross [laughs] through the, uh-
00:27:03,671 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:27:03,691 [John Lanza]
… through the- through the eff- the effort part, that might be
00:27:05,751 [Diana Graber]
… Right. Right.
00:27:07,271 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:27:07,771 [Diana Graber]
So, yeah.
00:27:09,651 [John Lanza]
Um, are there any other areas, any other kind of key areas that you think parents need to know about for teens, just regarding banking or financial activity? ‘Cause you’ve covered a lot. I just want to make sure we’ve covered every, uh, potential aspect here.
00:27:24,411 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. I pulled up a couple in the curriculum that we try to teach kids about-
00:27:27,711 [John Lanza]
Oh, great. Yeah
00:27:27,731 [Diana Graber]
… that I’ll just kind of extrapolate here, if that’s okay. But two of the big ones that, um, are targeted at teens right now, online shopping scams. This is when a scammer creates an online ad or store that claim to sell cheap designer goods, electronic gadgets, and other popular items. Sometimes a product they offer are imitations, and after paying for them, consumers may- may not get what they hoped for or may not get anything at all. So, that’s something that teens are falling for. They see a little thing on Instagram Shop here and it looks awesome, and it’s not really what they were hoping for, and then they don’t… You know, what do they do? And the other one are these online influencer scams. Teens love influencers. There’s a lot of them online. Sometimes a scammer creates a fake social media account that looks like that of an influencer or celebrity. They might even stage an online contest and ask the winner to pay a fee or to provide their bank account number in order to get their prize.
00:28:19,731 [John Lanza]
Hm.
00:28:19,931 [Diana Graber]
So that’s something else that’s happening, so, you know, for kids to be aware, like, you never give your bank account information online. I mean, you just- you just don’t do it. So, you know, it’s- they make these things easy and fun and, you know, enticing, and just for kids to be taught, like, “Hey, warning, warning, warning. Don’t do this.” So we teach them that, and then we have a whole bunch of scenarios that they play out in class, because there’s so many different ways that people can get to them. So we play out typical scenarios that might happen to a teenager, and we give them a red flag or a green flag. You know, “Is this okay or not okay?” And they talk about that. So it’s a great way for them to practice these skills, and again, hopefully remember them if it ever happens to them online.
00:29:00,031 [John Lanza]
Well, that is all really helpful. I appreciate that, Diana. We… You talked a little bit about, um, the importance of not sharing passwords, but what are some other best practices for teens that we may not have covered to protect their personal and financial information in the digital world?
00:29:16,751 [Diana Graber]
Well, passwords. Any kind of, you know, addresses is a big one. You know, you don’t share your address. Birthdate. Um, and then another one that we didn’t talk about is just knowing how to make a good password. I mean, that’s another thing. Passwords, again, are our first line of protection. And, you know, kids will use the same password on everything or use a really easy password to guess. And so we- we play a game where they use a mnemonic to help them remember a great password. It’s really fun, but it teaches them like how… You know, all the elements that go into a good password and why.
00:29:46,931 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:29:46,951 [Diana Graber]
And so that’s another pretty easy thing that even a parent could teach.
00:29:51,831 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that is, that’s very helpful. It’s- it’s- it’s funny, ’cause I- I’m just thinking about my kids. Uh, [laughs] I know when they log into their computer, it’s just they take their finger and just go right across the- the keys in the front.
00:30:03,751 [Diana Graber]
Uh.
00:30:03,771 [John Lanza]
And that’s so many of them have that kind of login. [laughs]
00:30:06,591 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:07,171 [John Lanza]
Just that is not gonna protect your house.
00:30:09,491 [Diana Graber]
That’s easy for people to guess. I mean, that’s the thing. Like, a lot of, you know, these sophisticated schemes will have like programs where they just go through and they try the most typical passwords until they get in. So that’s the reason why we do uppercase, lowercase, letter, symbol, you know, this many things. Change it every six months.
00:30:28,487 [John Lanza]
Yeah, and it’s made fairly easy because it’s built into a lot of the devi- you know, uh, i- if you have-
00:30:33,748 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:30:33,967 [John Lanza]
… an iPhone, you can-
00:30:35,287 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:30:35,467 [John Lanza]
… easily create your own passwords, right?
00:30:37,287 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:30:37,307 [John Lanza]
It’s just a matter of getting it across to them how important it is to have-
00:30:41,847 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:30:42,047 [John Lanza]
… those passwords, right?
00:30:43,228 [Diana Graber]
And two-
00:30:43,688 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:30:43,748 [Diana Graber]
… factor authentication, why that’s important-
00:30:46,327 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:30:46,347 [Diana Graber]
… what that is, what it does. That’s something else we talk about.
00:30:49,967 [John Lanza]
Hm. Yeah. Do you want to… Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
00:30:53,847 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. So a lot of times, not only do you have to choose a strong password, but a lot of companies will say, “Do you want to set up two-factor authentic- authentication.” [laughs] I’m gonna struggle with that word today. And so basically what that means is that not only do you put in a password, but to make sure it’s you, they’ll often send you a text with another number that you have to put in to get into your account. And it seems like, oh my gosh, what a hassle of a step. But that’s just another layer of protection that’s really important to take, especially for anything that involves money, your bank account, any kind of financials website.
00:31:29,527 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:31:30,987 [John Lanza]
That is all really helpful. Appreciate it, Diana. Thank you. Are there any other risks of oversharing personal information online that we haven’t covered and what we can do as parents to help them, to guide them to avoid it? Because, you know, and I think one of the other issues is just that, you know, as parents we are, you know, we’re telling dad jokes, we make cringey observations, and our kids are, [laughs] ignoring us, even when, you know, sometimes we’re just being annoying, but other times we’re talking to them about really important things, like this oversharing can affect your online reputation. And those risks really do matter, and for kids, you know, they just, i- it’s all of us have a difficult time thinking about, you know, being-
00:32:14,607 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:32:14,867 [John Lanza]
… future-focused. We’re very much in the moment, and that’s, that’s a good thing on some level, but we have to be aware of how this might affect us down the road. So what else can we do to help our kids, um, avoid oversharing?
00:32:28,607 [Diana Graber]
Well, you kind of hit the nail on the head, ’cause as a parent to tell your kids not to do something, it’s gonna go in one ear and out the other. It just is, [laughs] you know?
00:32:36,687 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:37,427 [Diana Graber]
Especially with technology, because a lot of them say, “Well, what do you know? I know so much more.” It’s just the-
00:32:42,747 [John Lanza]
Right
00:32:42,767 [Diana Graber]
… mindset. So that’s why I just think doing these activities in the classroom with peers and saying, “Hey, what do you think? You figure this out,” it empowers them to feel like they are the expert, and they make this discovery on their own of what could happen, and all of a sudden they feel like, “Oh, wow, this is what, you know, I’m gonna be more careful because I did this activity and now it’s in my brain.” And then they turn around and they’re the expert, and oftentimes they go home and tell their parent, “Hey, you shouldn’t do this, because this could happen to you.” So I like to turn the equation around. It’s funny, in the beginning you said something about engaging students and empowering parents, right? Is that what you-
00:33:20,487 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:33:20,607 [Diana Graber]
… the term you use? And I would turn it around, like I think what we’re trying to do is empower the students and engage the parents.
00:33:27,247 [John Lanza]
Hm. Interesting.
00:33:28,747 [Diana Graber]
I, for this,
00:33:29,067 [John Lanza]
Yeah, what, what I was-
00:33:29,767 [Diana Graber]
We keep-
00:33:29,787 [John Lanza]
… talking about was for that, that’s what we do. So, uh, we engage kids to get them excited about money smarts, right, and then we empower-
00:33:36,287 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:33:36,507 [John Lanza]
… the parents to help raise them to be money smart. So I-
00:33:40,247 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:33:40,287 [John Lanza]
… like your reframing. Continue, Diana.
00:33:41,987 [Diana Graber]
Well, I think for technology, we have to do it this way, because parents don’t know enough, honestly. [laughs]
00:33:48,927 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:49,107 [Diana Graber]
‘Cause again, it’s new to, new to most parents, relatively new, not so much as it used to be, but it’s still evolving and it’s not something… You know, for some reason kids are just adept at technology. They know the latest things ’cause they’re on it all the time, you know? And so we have to empower them with their own skills. And then I, I say engaging the parents because within the curriculum we have these send home parent letters that have activities that families do together, and parents often learn a lot through that, and it engages them to talk to their kids about all these things, which is so important, because as I relayed that really sad story earlier, you know, those two poor boys didn’t feel like they had a parent they could tell, [laughs] you know?
00:34:29,647 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:30,067 [Diana Graber]
And so we want to engage parents so that when and if something bad does happen, you’re the first place they go. I mean-
00:34:37,067 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:34:37,087 [Diana Graber]
… that’s so important.
00:34:39,367 [John Lanza]
Yeah, and what you’re, you’re kind of getting at the what really underpins all of what we do as well, which is that, we, we call it The Art of Allowance Project and Art of Allowance, uh, Podcast, but really, you could call it the art of conversation or money conversation, in this case-
00:34:55,267 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:34:55,387 [John Lanza]
… uh, tech or media conversation. We had that conversation with Erin. It is all about keeping that, keeping those lines of communication open so that, you know, we don’t get into a situation where
00:35:09,627 [John Lanza]
s- they, they feel like they can’t have that, that, that conversation, or they, they feel alone-
00:35:14,387 [Diana Graber]
Exactly
00:35:14,487 [John Lanza]
… and they don’t know what to do in a situation that’s as-
00:35:16,487 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:35:16,647 [John Lanza]
… dire as what happened to those, uh, teenage boys, which is awful. You’ve got some really, uh, interesting activities. You’re, you’ve already shared a bunch of them, uh, from your book Raising Humans in a Digital World. We will definitely have a link to that in the show notes because I think if nothing else, that is the guide that parents can turn to. Uh, your website is also replete with lots of great activities and ideas. It’s a great, that’s a great starting point, uh, too. Are there any other kind of activities that, uh, you can think of, kind of off the top of your mind, um, that you would like to share based on what we’ve been talking about that might be useful for a parent, um, to kind of start this process or engage with the process?
00:35:59,067 [Diana Graber]
Man, there’s so many. I’m just gonna go off the top of my head because one thing you mentioned early on was digital reputation, and so
00:36:06,127 [Diana Graber]
I always think it’s fun for families to do this, but, you know, sit with your kid and Google yourself and see what comes up and see if it matches the person that you believe you are in real life, and have your child Google themself or Google a friend or family member and see what comes up. So I just think for, you know, that’s something you can do together. It’s fun, [laughs] you know, and you might learn-
00:36:26,227 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:36:26,247 [Diana Graber]
… like, “Oh gosh, they shouldn’t have posted that,” or, “That’s exactly what they’re like. That’s so cool they posted that.” It’s, it’s a, it’s a nice easy activity to understand digital reputation.
00:36:35,679 [John Lanza]
Yeah. I’m glad you brought that up, because when I was [laughs] reading through your book, I did exactly that. I put down the book [laughs] and I Googled myself and then I Googled my kids, and, uh, was like, “Okay, that’s, that’s not bad. That’s, that, that’s, uh,”
00:36:48,480 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:36:48,500 [John Lanza]
“That’s all, that’s all workable.”
00:36:50,559 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. It’s funny what comes up too. You’re like, “Wow, I did that so long ago.” [laughs] How does that all
00:36:55,340 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:36:58,480 [John Lanza]
Well, I would say, one of the, one of the things we did well as parents is we have… Our kids have original enough names. ‘Cause my name, John, part of the reason we gave our kids more, uh, kind of different names was that I remember being in a math class in high school and having eight other Johns and thinking, “You know what? I don’t want my kid to have to deal with that.” And so when we Googled their name, and, you know, our last name, Lanza, is not that common a name, their names appear at the top.
00:37:24,779 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:37:25,119 [John Lanza]
So [laughs]-
00:37:25,879 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:37:26,079 [John Lanza]
… uh, which, which actually underscores the importance of making sure that your online reputation is really good, because you’re gonna pop to the top. So it better be-
00:37:34,359 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:37:34,479 [John Lanza]
… pretty solid.
00:37:35,919 [Diana Graber]
Exactly.
00:37:37,859 [John Lanza]
So, Diana, before we go through the gauntlet that is the fast and fun round here at the Art of Allowance podcast, is there anything else you want to cover with regard to kind of kids and tech and money that we didn’t discuss that you feel like, “Oh, we have to let parents know about this?”
00:37:55,359 [Diana Graber]
You know, I would just circle back to what I said at the beginning, is like all of this is education. You know, and it’s not… I mean, we covered a lot of things, and none of that could be done in, like, a one-hour assembly in a school or a one-hour lecture from an adult. It’s things that kids kinda have to discover when they’re developmentally ready and practice and play out and discuss and dis- you know, put up, chew it up and understand it. And it takes time. And we just, I mean, as far as what digital literacy entails, we covered this much of it, which is a tiny, tiny amount. Um-
00:38:27,819 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:38:27,979 [Diana Graber]
You know, it just, it takes time, and meeting kids where they are developmentally is really important.
00:38:33,039 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Well, I think you hit on a key point, which is that what we’re trying to do here is we’ve got financial literacy, we’ve got media literacy, and we’ve got digital literacy, and all three of those things really matter, matter as much as literacy itself. You know, uh, reading-
00:38:49,819 [Diana Graber]
Right
00:38:49,939 [John Lanza]
… and writing. So, um-
00:38:51,599 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:38:51,839 [John Lanza]
I think this is… It’s, it’s great. I’m, I’m excited to have, to share this conversation, ’cause it all seems to work together, because you can’t have financial literacy anymore without media-
00:39:03,559 [Diana Graber]
No
00:39:03,619 [John Lanza]
… and digital literacy, right?
00:39:05,299 [Diana Graber]
Yeah, because we do everything online.
00:39:08,119 [John Lanza]
Yeah. [laughs] Right.
00:39:09,079 [Diana Graber]
So it’s just part of the world today. It’s how we’ve evolved as humans.
00:39:13,779 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:39:15,359 [John Lanza]
I modified the first question, um, that we normally ask. So what does the term, say, let’s say “digitally empowered” mean to you, Diana?
00:39:24,819 [Diana Graber]
Yeah. So I love that, because I think “empowered” is the word we want to focus on. We want to empower our kids to use technology safely, wisely, ethically. And we can do that, but we have to educate them on all the things that that entails. Everything from digital reputation to cyberbullying, hate speech, plagiarism, s- extortion, online information, misinformation, disinformation. [laughs] Shall I go on? So it’s a lot. Um, but you do all that stuff, and then they’re empowered, because they have all this knowledge that they can use and then use the internet in a really wonderful, empowering, productive way.
00:40:01,999 [John Lanza]
Yeah, and we’re, and we’re, we’re kind of now, you know, wading into this world of AI, where misinformation, disinformation, whatever you want to call it-
00:40:09,499 [Diana Graber]
I forgot to mention that one. [laughs] Yeah.
00:40:11,259 [John Lanza]
… begins. Yeah. That is going to be something they’re going to have to sort through, and that’s hard. I mean, that’s hard if you are fairly media literate. I can only imagine-
00:40:20,179 [Diana Graber]
Yeah
00:40:20,239 [John Lanza]
… as you’re kind of growing and trying to figure all this out.
00:40:23,959 [Diana Graber]
Yeah.
00:40:24,579 [John Lanza]
But digital empowerment is a goal, and I think that’s good, and I appreciate you sharing that information. So,
00:40:30,139 [John Lanza]
so Diana, what is the best investment of time or money you’ve ever spent on your kids?
00:40:37,899 [Diana Graber]
Well, I thought about that, and I think the best investment on my kids’ time and money-wise [laughs] was, you know, every summer, we’re really intentional about doing a big trip together into the back country. Mules take us back there and dump us there for, like, a week to 10 days, and we love it, because we’re completely… You know, there’s no cell coverage. There’s no internet. We have to have face-to-face communications 24/7. You know, we don’t do that in- anymore in the world, right? Especially-
00:41:06,019 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah
00:41:06,039 [Diana Graber]
… as your kids get older. So I think that, the investment of doing that from the time they were babies ’til now, that was a great time investment. And I say money ’cause it’s, you know, it’s a vacation. It costs money. [laughs] So I think it was a really great investment that we made into our children.
00:41:24,379 [John Lanza]
Well, that’s wonderful, and like I said before, I always get these ideas that I think, “Oh, I wish I had thought of that idea [laughs] for our kids when they were younger.” So, um, that’s wonderful. All right, so Diana, if you could transmit a message that everyone would see, sky-written on a billboard-
00:41:42,619 [Diana Graber]
[laughs]
00:41:42,819 [John Lanza]
… wherever, what would that message say?
00:41:46,579 [Diana Graber]
Well, I think it would be the way I ended my book. My advice to people, whether you’re online or offline, “Be good. Be kind. Be happy.” Pretty simple.
00:41:56,479 [John Lanza]
That’s a great billboard.
00:41:59,059 [John Lanza]
And then other than your own book, which we will, like I said, link to-
00:42:02,679 [Diana Graber]
[laughs]
00:42:02,979 [John Lanza]
… in the show notes, what’s kind of one book, podcast, and you could share more than one, uh, podcast or any media that you go back to, or that you gift or share the most often?
00:42:16,039 [Diana Graber]
Well, one g- book that I’ve gifted a lot, it really is written by my mentor, Michele Borba, who really helped me when I was writing my own book. And she wrote a really thoughtful book, um, th- it’s kind of a long title, Unselfie: Raising Empathetic Kids in an All About Me World. And it’s really… Like, I talked about ethical thinking, how important that is, but empathy is really important today too…. and her book is all about how to raise kids that have a lot of empathy. Um, I think that’s a very key book, and I- I’ve given that to a lot of friends.
00:42:46,348 [John Lanza]
Oh, very nice. Yeah, we, we didn’t really talk a lot about that in this particular conversation. I know there’s a lot in your book on that, so if parents want to find out more, your book is, has got a ton of information on the importance of empathy.
00:43:00,747 [John Lanza]
So, how can people find you, to the extent you want to, there’s a certain irony in this, find you on social media… but we’re talking about, we’re talking about parents here. Uh-
00:43:09,228 [Diana Graber]
[laughs]
00:43:09,348 [John Lanza]
… finding you on social media and/or the web?
00:43:12,747 [Diana Graber]
Well, I’m easy to find via both my websites, cybercivics.com or cyberwise.org. I’m on LinkedIn, obviously, Diana Graber, and then we are very active on social media, both Cyber Civics and CyberWise. We’re on all of them, Facebook, Instagram, unfortunately X, but you know, we do have all, so we’re easy to find. And then I can be reached through our support line anytime, [email protected].
00:43:36,047 [John Lanza]
Very nice. And is there any action that you’d like people to take that would be helpful to you or Cyber Civics?
00:43:43,428 [Diana Graber]
Yeah, you know, it’s what I said earlier. I mean if any of this resonates with you and you want your kids to use the internet well, whether it’s for financial purposes or engagement purposes or learning purposes or just because they’re gonna use it when they get older, you know, pick up the phone and ask your school administrator, “Are you teaching my kids digital literacy?” You know, and if you’re not, why not? Um, I think that’s really important today because it doesn’t happen unless you ask for a lot of schools. A lot of schools are doing it, which is awesome. Um, I would hope that you would send them to Cyber Civics if they want to learn more. We have a really robust curriculum that starts in fourth grade, it goes through eighth grade. So at the very minimum, that’s what I would love for parents to do.
00:44:22,848 [John Lanza]
Well, very nice. Uh, Diana, this was great. I appreciate you connecting and tell- talking to us and helping parents to get more digitally empowered. Really appreciate your time and all your knowledge, so thanks again.
00:44:38,028 [Diana Graber]
Oh, you’re very welcome. Thank you for having me. [instrumental music]