“We have a culture that gets increasingly uncomfortable if we’re not getting this constant input from the screens. […] If we don’t teach them (kids) how to find pleasure, to find entertainment, to figure out how to work your way through boredom without somebody giving you that easy answer, we’re really handicapping them for the future.”
— Josh Golin
During this episode of The Art of Allowance Podcast, host John Lanza speaks with guest Josh Golin about the evolving landscape of children’s online safety, the importance of limiting kids’ screen time and the legislative efforts aimed at protecting children from harmful digital marketing practices. They discuss the challenges families face in managing screen time, the significance of early childhood education and the need for collective action among parents to advocate for change. Josh shares personal experiences raising his daughter commercial-free and emphasizes the importance of instilling values around money and media consumption in children. He also highlights the urgency of supporting legislation like the Children and Teens’ Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA 2.0) and the Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA) to create a safer digital environment for children.
Josh Golin is the Executive Director of Fairplay, an organization dedicated to protecting children from exploitative practices by marketers and Big Tech. Under his leadership, Fairplay has influenced major changes at platforms like YouTube, Instagram and Amazon. Josh has testified before Congress and regularly speaks to parents, policymakers and professionals about children’s media health. He also has appeared on Good Morning America and Fox News and in The New York Times and The Washington Post. He lives in Vermont with his wife, teenage daughter and dog.
Links (From the Show)
- Connecting with Fairplay
- Fairplay’s website
- Fairplay’s script to follow when contacting your representative about supporting KOSA
- Fairplay’s Screens in Schools Action Kit
- Media-Smart Mentions
- Jonathan Haidt’s book, The Anxious Generation
- John’s newsletter on Haidt’s four norms
- The “Wait Until 8th” pledge
- Consumer advocate Ralph Nader
- Susan Linn’s book, The Case for Make Believe
- The Scrolling 2 Death Podcast
Show Notes (Find what’s most interesting to you!)
- How Fairplay’s name change reflects larger societal shifts [2:49]
- Fairplay’s early childhood program focuses on screen time. [6:15]
- Helping parents navigate screen time [9:10]
- How beginning an allowance is akin to limiting a child’s screen time [14:21]
- Collective action progress regarding screen time and social media [18:25]
- Josh summarizes two bills working their way through Congress. [23:14]
- What you can do to help get both bills passed in the House [27:42]
- The arguments against both bills are centered around censorship. [28:25]
- Josh’s five-year update on raising a commercial-free child [30:52]
- Tackling branding issues with young children [36:34]
- Three tactics to help parents discover commercial-free communities [40:32]
- Josh shares his money-smart influences. [45:06]
- What you don’t know about Fairplay [47:35]
- Advice from Ralph Nader [48:44]
- A pitch for New Jersey pizza [49:31]
- Josh’s podcast recommendation (Note: This show does address instances of online harm.) [50:21]
- Keeping up with Fairplay online [51:29]
- Josh’s time-sensitive request to contact your representative about supporting KOSA [51:57]
Click here for the full transcript.
If you liked this episode …
Want to help your kids protect themselves online? Author and digital literacy advocate Diana Graber reviews basic tactics for keeping personal information safe at the 21:14 mark of her Art of Allowance Podcast appearance. This short video on creating a good password might also be helpful.
Ready to start a conversation with your kids about media literacy? Media Literacy Now CEO and Founder Erin McNeill shares strategies for doing so during her time on the show. And just like Josh and John discuss, manipulation is a great starting point. Listen in at 37:32 for all the details, or watch the corresponding short.
Interested in hearing more from Josh? During his first podcast episode, he provides recommendations to protect children from both the obvious and the subtle pitfalls of materialism and social media. For a preview of his suggestions, stream this video.
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Full transcript
This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 78, featuring host John Lanza and guest Josh Golin.
00:00:00,199 –> 00:00:09,039 [John Lanza]
Hello, and welcome to Episode 78 of The Art of Allowance podcast. I’m your host, John Lanza.
00:00:09,039 –> 00:00:30,939 [Josh Golin]
You know, none of us parent in a vacuum. We are affected by the culture, and the more we can change the culture towards one that, um, that sees children as, as, um, worth protecting, as children as, you know, having these resources where they can, uh, where they can survive without screens or with limited screen time, uh, the better off we all will be.
00:00:30,939 –> 00:02:48,419 [John Lanza]
(instrumental music) In this episode, I speak with returning guest Josh Golin about the evolving landscape of children’s online safety, the importance of limiting kids’ screen time, and the legislative efforts aimed at protecting our kids from harmful digital marketing practices. We discuss the challenges that families face in managing screen time, the significance of early childhood education, and the need for collective action among parents to advocate for change. Josh shares personal experiences raising his daughter commercial-free and emphasizes the importance of instilling values around money and media consumption in children. He also highlights the urgency of supporting pending legislation, like the Children and Teens Online Privacy Protection Act, also known as COPPA 2.0, and the Kids Online Safety Act, also known as KOSA, to create a safer digital environment for our children. Josh Golin is the executive director of FairPlay, an organization dedicated to protecting children from exploitative practices by marketers and big tech. Under his leadership, FairPlay has influenced major changes at platforms like YouTube, Instagram, and Amazon. Josh has testified before Congress and regularly speaks to parents, policymakers, and professionals about children’s media health. He has also appeared on Good Morning America and FOX News and in The New York Times and The Washington Post. He lives in Vermont with his wife, teenage daughter, and dog, and I hope you enjoy my conversation with Josh Golin. Before we dive directly into the show, I wanted to let you know that I have a free email newsletter I send out every Monday, and it’s a great way to make sure you never miss an episode of The Art of Allowance podcast. You can find out more at the end of today’s conversation, including how to sign up. And now, on with the show. Today, I am speaking with Josh Golin. Welcome, Josh.
00:02:48,419 –> 00:02:49,599 [Josh Golin]
Great to be here, John.
00:02:49,599 –> 00:03:26,979 [John Lanza]
Well, a lot has changed since we last talked during the pandemic. That’s the most obvious thing that has changed, and so we’ve gotten out of that and, uh… But more pertinent to what we’re gonna discuss here, there’s just a lot more attention now, I think, to limiting phone use before high school, which is great. There are two big bills to help protect our kids online that are making their way through Congress, and of course, you changed your organization’s name from the Center for a Commercial-Free Childhood to FairPlay. So let’s start there. Why did you change the name? And perhaps use that as a segue to tell us what you’ve been up to and what FairPlay has been working on.
00:03:26,979 –> 00:05:46,379 [Josh Golin]
Sure. So, um, we changed our name back in, in 2020, um, I think because, um, you know, um, while we still believe, um, wholeheartedly in a commercial-free childhood and our advocacy is, um, still around limiting marketing to kids, I think we started to realize that maybe with that name, we were, um, preaching to the converted, and we wanted to make sure that this… You know, the issues that, um, we work on, whether parents are aware of it or not, touch every single child, and it’s not just the advertising that is targeted to kids. But perhaps the most harmful effect of advertising to children is these environments that are built in order to advertise to them, so things like social media and online platforms and apps that have this business model of capturing kids’ attention by any means necessary, and that’s in order to collect their data and advertise to them. And so, we bel-… You know, we think the name FairPlay, with its allusions to both “play,” which is such an important part of childhood, and “fairness,” because what is happening to kids online, where you have the most powerful companies in the world leveraging their technology in order to exploit children’s developmental vulnerabilities, that’s the farthest thing from fair. And so, it’s really about leveling the playing field, giving parents and kids a chance in a world that is increasingly stacked against them. What does that look like in practice? Well, as you mentioned in, in the… uh, in your opening, we’ve been really hard at work on two federal bills which are closer to passing at this moment than any legislation to protect children online in 25 years. We have just launched a brand-new program around early childhood and screen time, because I think this, uh… You know, while we’ve seen a sea change when it comes to concern around older children and social media, I think there’s still less of an understanding that, that, uh… Those habits, both the children’s habits and the habits of the platforms that are trying to addict them, start much younger than when kids reach social media age. And we have a brand-new program around getting phones out of schools, um, which we’re really excited about, because that seems like a, a really common sense way that we can give kids a break from all of this stuff and have them concentrate on actually learning and being with their peers face-to-face.
00:05:46,379 –> 00:06:23,439 [John Lanza]
Well, that is great. It sounds like you guys are very busy, and I wholeheartedly agree that asymmetry that is there for where the… for the company’s ability to kind of control the mindshare. I mean, uh, l-… you know, o-… adults, let alone children, is so powerful. So it’s so important that we have an organization like FairPlay, and, uh, the change of the name makes perfect sense, because that goal of ending marketing to children is a worthwhile one. So, I, I wanna… There’s… I wanna go back to a number of the, uh, initiatives you talked about here. Actually, let’s, let’s do that. Let’s talk about the early childhood program. Tell us a little bit more about that program.
00:06:23,439 –> 00:09:10,529 [Josh Golin]
Sure. So, I think what we are trying to do with that program is, um, is a couple of different things. I think, uh, you know, we’re all for educating parents, and we’re all for getting parents more information, but I think we understand that, um, that this is not just a parenting issue alone, and that, um, in order to… You know, young children are spending, on average, three to four hours on screens a day. Kids who were heavier users in early childhood are more susceptible to h- the harms of social media when they get older be-… probably because they don’t have that sort of resilience that comes with, with learning how to entertain yourself and soothe yourself without a screen. And so-We think it’s really important to address, in the same way that we and others have been doing with social media, to address the design of apps and, uh, and- and platforms that are built for younger children. And so, what does that mean in practice? Well, it means looking for those practices that are, that are unfair and are harming children, um, things that make it, uh, lead to increased temper tantrums when parents try and separate kids from their screens, things that make it much easier for kids just to stay on a screen than to get off and get outside or do, do things that would be beneficial to them. So we’re gonna be looking at- at- at some of these platforms that are really popular with young kids and filing complaints with the Federal Trade Commission for those that are engaged in these unfair practices, that are trying to addict kids at- at- at a young age and harming them i- in doing so. We’re also going to be looking at the educational claims that many of these apps are making. So one thing about early childhood screen time is the primary reason that parents give, allow young ch- kids to have screen time is because they think it’s good for them, because there- there’s a ton of marketing that tells parents that if your kid is not using an iPad when they’re three and you’re using, or using this particular app, that they’re gonna be behind when they get to kindergarten. And almost all of these apps have absolutely no research to back up these claims, and so they’re exploiting parents’ fears, they’re exploiting parents’ natural tendency to want what’s best for their ch- children. And so, uh, you know, there’s- there’s laws about not being able to- to lie in your marketing, and so we’re gonna be looking to hold some of those companies accountable too, and ultimately what we wanna do is flip the script on early childhood screen time, where it is not seen as something that is essential to early learning, but is seen as something that you do occasionally for fun, but if you’re not doing it, you’re not going to fall behind, and to really take that pressure off of parents that they feel like this is something they need to do to prepare their kids for kindergarten, so that the kids can actually have the experiences that will prepare them for kindergarten, and that is things like, um, creative play, interacting with their peers, um, reading, spending time with caring adults rather than being, um, at the whim of these companies and their algorithms.
00:09:10,529 –> 00:11:04,349 [John Lanza]
Can’t help but thinking, uh, that all makes perfect sense, and we did talk about, a little bit about this when we had our last conversation, but I think it’s worth doting on because I can’t help but thinking that as a parent, so much of this is… There’s- there’s certainly the side where- where th- if there are marketing lies that are happening saying that, you know, you, that your kids are gonna fall behind, that certainly needs to be addressed. But the other side is the reality of parents, you know, especially with the current work-at-home situation, excuse me, situations. You need ti- you know, you need to be working, and so how do you take care of your kid if they’re home and you don’t have a way of keeping them occupied? And I- I know in our last conversation, you said that, you know, you c- it certainly is possible that kids can occupy themselves, but that, I’m not sure that enough par- I- I’m not sure that many of us really are confident that we can do that, right? And it feels like that side of it is as important if not more important than the other side, because there’s so, there’s so many burdens now on parents at home because of the, you know, the- one of the good and bad sides of the pandemic is that now people have more flexibility, but when they have more flexibility, that means they can be home, and if they can be home, then their kids can be home with them. And if their kids can be home with them and they don’t necessarily have, they either don’t have the resources or, you know, the- the daycare is closed or whatever it is, they’re gonna have kids there and there’s that practical aspect of it. So this is, uh, me meandering through this- this question, trying to get to how do we help parents think through this- this- (laughs) this minefield of- of having kids at home and trying to keep them occupied and knowing that screens are an easy fix to that issue?
00:11:04,349 –> 00:11:23,809 [Josh Golin]
Yeah. Well, I think there’s a couple things. I mean, first of all, I mean, one of the reasons why we focus on the design of these products is because it makes it so much harder to give kids screen time in small doses. I mean, there are literally apps that kids play with, and a character in the game will start crying if the kid tries to exit the game.
00:11:23,809 –> 00:11:23,909 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:11:23,909 –> 00:11:40,989 [Josh Golin]
I mean, just real, the worst kind of, you know, manipulation when the kids are obviously attached to the characters in the game, and if the k- like, if the character is telling the kid that they’re harming them by- by not continuing to play a game, that’s- that’s pretty flousy. And we wanna hold those companies accountable that are doing things like that.
00:11:40,989 –> 00:11:41,309 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:11:41,309 –> 00:14:20,129 [Josh Golin]
But in terms of the parents, I think, yeah, I think we really need to have a- a cultural mindshift around this, and I think that, um, that’s part of what we’re trying to do with this program, but also I think, you know, we need to, we need to give parents more support, we need to help them understand that the quick fixes of a screen have long-term implications. I think if you start tur- turning to screens to entertain ch- children when you need to get a break, you kind of take your other options off the table. So once you start doing that, it’s always going to be a screen, is- is the way that it, this, it usually manifests itself. So, you know, helping parents understand that a little bit of short-term pain is worth so much long-term gain. If you can get your ch- child to entertain themselves without a screen while you’re working, if you can get them- them, you know, simple toys, books even before they can read, um, to flip through and- and- and read the way that- that wonderful way that young children do when they- they don’t understand the words and they- they make their own words up while they’re reading, I mean, these are incredible skills that, um, that frankly most adults are lacking these day. I mean, go to the, go to the grocery checkout line and see how many people, um, are looking at their phone in like the, you know, the- the- the 90 seconds that it takes to get to the cashier. We- we have a- a culture that’s, that gets increasingly uncomfortable if we’re not getting this constant input from the screens. If we do that to kids at a young age, it really handicaps their ability to be more resilient when it comes to a screen culture as they get older. If we don’t teach them how to, um, to find pleasure, to find entertainment, to find rel- figure out how to work your way through boredom, um, without somebody giving you that easy answer, we’re really handicapping them for the future. And so, that’s, I mean, and I- and I don’t- I don’t, um, wanna downplay at all the conundrum that parents face or how hard it can be to be home with a child, like when you’re trying to get something done and they’re demanding your attention, so I think we wanna do one, a couple of things. One, we wanna help those parents understand the alternatives and the benefits of those alternatives, and two, we wanna change the design of this stuff so when parents do r- have to resort to a screen, it doesn’t lead to the same sort of temper tantrums and fights and habit-forming, um, things, but maybe it is just watching a video for- for 10 minutes and then going on to something else rather than being fed a constant stream of like, “These are the videos that our algorithms understand that you as a four-year-old wanna see worse than anything right now and will do anything, including making your parents miserable-”
00:14:20,129 –> 00:14:20,209 [John Lanza]
(laughs).
00:14:20,209 –> 00:14:21,769 [Josh Golin]
“… in order to keep watching those.”
00:14:21,769 –> 00:15:32,295 [John Lanza]
It strikes me when you’re talking about how parents can deal with, deal with this, i- that it’s very similar to what happens when you start an allowance with a child. So, you know, if you’ve g- been going into a store with your kid and you haven’t started an allowance and you’ve been indulging your kid’s desires, when you’ve started an allowance and now they have their own money and that’s what they nee- that’s- that’s how they get the things that they want, there is a very high likelihood that there’s going to be a tantrum or multiple tantrums in those first trips to the store, right? And so, you just have to, as a parent, have to deal with that, knowing that the greater, the greater picture, the bigger picture is that money empowerment, these kids, you know, learning to kind of set goals for themselves and learn how to use money as a tool, we just have to, as parents-… Decide we’re gonna do this and then stick to our guns. And the kid, yes, they’re going to have tantrums, but we kind of all know, if there’s something we really believe in, if there’s a value we believe in, we can get through those tantrums to get to that other side, right? We have to go, go through the valley of despair to get to the, the meadow on the other side. Does that make sense, Josh?
00:15:32,295 –> 00:17:32,895 [Josh Golin]
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and if it was e- if it was, you know, 100% easy, then everybody would, you know, everybody would be limiting young children’s screen time, right? There, there is, there is a fair, a fair amount of work involved, but I do think, I, I wholeheartedly believe, and I kn- from, from talking to so many parents about this, that the work, you will, you will get it back, um, a hundredfold. Like, if, you know, having, having, uh, a couple of miserable days to establish those habits, um, and, and getting your child to a point where they are comfortable entertaining themselves without a screen is, is just one of the greatest gifts you can give both your child and yourself. I mean, to be able to know… Because I think one of the things, and, and we may have talked about this last time, but I think there’s this false dichotomy that gets set up that either our child is on a screen or we’re on the floor playing with them, right? And, and there’s a third way. Our children can play by themselves. If they have siblings, they can play with siblings, but even, you know, I had an only ch- I have an only child, even only children can, can do wonderful things to entertain themselves, but they need to have the space to do that, they need to build those muscles just like anything else, and then that will pay off. And the other thing I’ll just say is, like, this is the one time where you as a parent will have full control over your child’s screen time, is when they w- are little. Like, sure, it may be hard on your kid if they’re the only kid in their preschool class that doesn’t know what Paw Patrol is, but that’s nothing compared to what it’s gonna be like if they’re 14 and they’re the only kid that’s not on Snapchat, right? There’s just so much less peer pressure, there’s so much, like, you, you, you just have a lot more awareness of what they’re doing and a lot, a lot more of ability to control what they’re doing. So giving them those healthy habits at that moment when you have that control is important not just for that moment, but for setting them up for future success. And, and, and in that, I would say it’s probably very similar to, like, allowance planning.
00:17:32,895 –> 00:17:46,215 [John Lanza]
Yeah. It’s, uh… My, my running coach, I do a fair amount of marathon running, and he said, “One thing you just need to think about when you’re, you know, at mile 16 or mile 23 is, you didn’t sign up for this to be easy.” That’s kind of parenting in a nutshell, right?
00:17:46,215 –> 00:18:25,255 [Josh Golin]
It is hard, but I think, I think we can make it easier, and that’s one of the reasons why we are really focused on not just educating parents about this stuff, but really looking for those opportunities to change the practices of these companies that are trying to addict our kids, and trying to change culture, because, you know, none of us parent in a vacuum, and we are affected by the culture. And the more we can change the culture towards one that, um, that sees children as, as, um, worth protecting, as children as, you know, having these resources where they can, uh, where they can survive without screens or with limited screen time, uh, the better off we all will be.
00:18:25,255 –> 00:19:47,135 [John Lanza]
Well, let’s talk about some of the solutions and some of the, uh, real kind of positive developments. I think in part with the help of the norms that Jonathan Haidt writes about in The Anxious Generation, we’re seeing a lot more parents kind of limiting phone and social media use before high school, and those four norms are no smartphones before high school, no social media before 16, phone-free schools, which we’ve already been talking about, and just more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world, which are, it’s, that’s something you’ve been talking about from day one. And even at ground level, I just see this, my younger brothers who have, you know, younger kids than I have, their schools have adopted these kind of pro- policies limiting phone use, so progress is really being made collectively. And, you know, that’s really, uh, Haidt’s kind of key point here is that we can reduce or eliminate this kind of collective action problem that exists in which even well-meaning parents feel compelled to give kids… We ran into this phone and social media access earlier than we would like, because it will aff- their, our kids convince us it’s gonna affect our social life, we’ll be ostracized, we’ll, “It’ll be the end of my social life.” And in essence because everybody’s doing it. And so I, I’d like you to just tell us, like, what’s your sense of the progress happening in this area? Do you feel as, uh, feel like there is a lot of progress? Are you seeing that on your end?
00:19:47,135 –> 00:22:53,215 [Josh Golin]
Absolutely. Um, it, you know, I would say, uh, if we spoke five years ago, there has been a sea change since then. And I think, uh, there’s been a cou- couple of sort of really big changes that I would point to. Number one is that we’re seeing this as a collective action problem, um, and, and one that has policy solutions as opposed to just parenting, a parenting problem. And, you know, uh, several years ago, this was part of the parenting wars, right? I mean, so you would have, you would have parents who limited their children’s screen time, you know, “I’m better than you because I, I limit screen time.” And you’d have parents who let their kids g- run wild on the internet being like, “I’m better than you because I don’t worry about this stuff. I, I, you know, I don’t sweat the small stuff.” And, and, you know, and coincidentally, they were, you know, probably arguing about it on social media, which is, right? I mean, that’s what (laughs) that’s what adults do, they fight with each other on social media about parenting. And now, I think there is a recognition that this is too much for any parent to take on alone. I think parents saying, “We need help.” is so refreshing. I mean, just really, really to be able to express that vulnerability, to be able to express, like, “This is too hard. I’m working a, a job and a half or two jobs, and to try and understand what my kid is doing on social media and all of these settings that make no sense, and my kid knows more about them than I do anyway.” Like, um, it, it’s great that parents are saying, “Help us.” Like, that’s, that’s what we need, um, and, and that’s, there’s nothing shameful in asking for help in any situation, and, and it’s, it’s wonderful to see that happening with this issue. Um, and then I think, you know, we just see… Um, this, you know, when I, when I talked to you five years ago, this was kind of lonely work. There weren’t that many people or organizations focused on it. We’ve seen so many more organizations, so many more funders coming into the space, so many more politicians who are concerned, regulators are concerned. And this is, you know, when you’re talking about taking on the most powerful companies in the world, you know, Google and Meta, um, TikTok, you need, need to come at it from all angles. You need to come at it, um… And so, you know, when we see school districts suing social media companies, and attorneys general sue- suing them, and private lawsuits, and the FTC, Federal Trade Commission, taking action, and we see state legislation, and we see federal legislation, and we see schools taking, you know, getting rid of the phones in schools, and parents banding together to delay giving their kids phones or to delay getting on social media, like, all of these things are leading to really exciting and important changes and a real cultural mindshift. The- m- mindshifts usually take a really long time to happen. What we’re seeing happen in a few years with social media took decades with tobacco, and so that’s what’s really exciting to me here, is, is sort of the speed at which this is happening and, and how we move this away from being a problem that we sort of whisper to our partners in our own homes about to being something that everyone is comfortable not just talking about but saying, “I need help.”
00:22:53,215 –> 00:23:28,055 [John Lanza]
It’s great. And, uh, it’ll be great when the social media companies actually introduce age gating that works. That will be wonderful. And, uh, it’s funny, yep, I, I was listening to our previous conversation, and there was a prevailing thought that, and this was during the pandemic, that, “Well, the screens have won,” (laughs) right? And, uh, and certainly since then, a lot has changed. I wanted you to talk a little bit about the bills in Congress and what kind of benefits they might bring to us. Is there anything that we can do as citizens to make sure that they get passed through the House now that they’ve gotten through the Senate?
00:23:28,055 –> 00:28:26,289 [Josh Golin]
Yeah.So, so there’s two bills that were combined in the Senate. The first bill is the Kids Online Safety Act, which would do a number of really important things. First of all, it would create a duty of care for social media and other online platforms that are used by kids to ensure that the design of their platforms was not contributing to, to serious harms like eating disorders, suicidality, anxiety and depression, cyberbullying, sexual exploitation, and I think really important, social media addiction, because addiction is sort of the nexus of which all those other harms occur, because these platforms are trying to addict kids by any means necessary. And the byproduct is often things like anxiety, depression and eating disorders and worse. So, so that duty of care, I think, is really important. What it will do is force platforms to look at the way they’re designed. And so we have situations like we know, for instance, um, kids, when you ask them, say that being able to see how many likes every post gets or how many followers everybody has makes them really anxious. It c- it creates an anxiety. They wanna constantly get those metrics up. If they’re, um, not getting as many likes for something that they posted compared to their peers, they feel bad about themselves. And so, Meta did a s- a test where they turned those off for young people, and across the board young people said, “Wow, we feel better. We feel less compelled to use the platform all the time. We feel less anxious.” But Meta didn’t implement that feature because it also meant that the kids were using the platform less, and they didn’t… You know, obviously that’s not what Meta is looking for. If the Kids Online Safety Act was law, Meta might just have to implement, uh, turn those lights off because, um, because it’s contributing to anxiety and depression and compulsive use. So that’s the kind of real groundbreaking changes that this law could force through this duty of care in, in the way it’s designed, but it also does other things as well. It makes platforms put all of their settings on the most protective, the safest by default. Right now, if, you know, when kids are on six or seven or 10 different platforms, asking parents or the kids themselves to work their way through all of those settings to try and, you know, if you’ve ever tried to change the settings, they make it really, really hard. And so this just says let’s start out by protecting kids, and then if people wanna loosen those settings, they can do so. But we know that most people will just stay on the defaults, and so that’s, that’s the, that’s better. They will also have transparency requirements, reporting requirements. So they’ll have to report on all the harms that are occurring on those platforms. We think if platforms are, are forced to report that their algorithms have been pushing pro-eating disorder content to millions of children, that that will be a really good motivator to get them to stop doing that. So that’s the Kids Online Safety Act. The other bill is the Children’s Online Privacy and Protection Act or COPA 2.0. It updates the only law that we have on the books which is, which is COPA, which was passed in 1998 before we had smartphones or social media, and that law only covers, um, up to kids’ thirteenth birthday. So what this update to COPA would do would give teens privacy protections for the first time, which is really important. It would also ban data-driven advertising, so targeted advertising that, that the advertising that is, you know, based on all of this information that these platforms collect on us would not be allowed to minors. And that’s really important, one, because that’s really manipulative and pernicious advertising when you are able to target a child’s individual vulnerabilities and preferences. It gives marketers just an unfair h- um, leg up on kids. But the other thing is, is that is the fuel that drives all of this. So the ad- the excessive screen time and the, um, really harmful algorithmic recommendations are all part of the system that’s trying to keep kids online as long as possible in order to deliver that advertising. So if we take away the business reason that they’re trying to addict kids, kids will have a much safer, less addictive experience. And so taken together, we s- really see these bills creating a sea change for young people and their experience online. In terms of what listeners can do, they should contact their rep in the House. If they go to our website, we have a really easy way to do that. Either by call or email we have a script for you. And urge them to co-sponsor this bill. And people should also call the Speaker of the House, um, Mike Johnson’s office and, and, and urge him to move this bill forward. These bills passed the Senate 91 to three. That does not happen in our hyper-partisan age. It never, uh, you know, you never see Republicans and Democrats agreeing as much as they did on the Senate in this bill. So now we need Republican leadership in the House, which is really sort of the last holdout, to, to come on board. And this bil- these bills could be law in a matter of months if the House comes on board.
00:28:26,289 –> 00:28:31,349 [John Lanza]
What are the arguments against this bill, or these bills?
00:28:31,349 –> 00:30:29,329 [Josh Golin]
You know, the, I think the biggest one is that this will infringe on free speech, that, and, and, and, and that’s just, we d- we just think that’s just, um, not true, and in fact that the tech industry has been spreading a lot of misinformation. So this bill specifically says that anything that a young person is searching for, they can find. It doesn’t stop a young person from saying anything or from reading about anything. What it will do is address those algorithmic recommendations. So right now on social media, one thing that we know, if a kid indicates they are dissatisfied with their body or their, or they’re concerned about their weight, they will be barraged with eating disorder content, you know, the 500-calorie diet which will literally kill you if you try and go live off of 500 calories a day. They will be sent all of this content not from people that they’re following or from people that they, you know, that they have chosen to seek out, but it will be sent to them through their For You feed, through the content that these platforms send to kids whether they’ve asked for it or not. And so the question, you know, what I would put back to these people who say this is gonna lead to censorship, does Meta, does TikTok, does Snap have a First Amendment right to send kids content on how to cut themselves or how to starve themselves in order to drive advertising profits? I think clearly the answer is no, and so, you know, that, that these companies do not have a First Amendment right to try and addict our kids by any means necessary. And, and so, but that argument h- had, you know, in a culture where we believe, all of us, I think, believe very strongly in the First Amendment, believe in free speech as an American value, it’s been an effective argument in, in, uh, in, in br- in leading the opposition to the bill. I will also say there is no doubt that the tech industry lobbying and tech industry donations are playing a role in, in opposition to this bill as well.
00:30:29,329 –> 00:31:31,869 [John Lanza]
That makes sense. Thank you for giving us the, the landscape there, and, uh, and the, uh, the, uh, way that parents can, uh, try to, try to make this happen. So that’s, uh, it’s good. It l- it’s good to see some progress happening there. Okay. While we’re talking there, we’re looking big picture, so now I d- I wanna get, um, an, uh, a little more personal. I have a few questions I wanna ask you, one of which has to do with when we last talked, you know, you were fighting the good fight, and you have a, a, or only child, and she is, you’ve been raising her commercial-free. But she, now she’s gone through a little bit of (laughs) that gauntlet of adolescence, and I just wanted to get a sense about, uh, and we talked a little bit about, kind of, uh, allowance and then, and some of the successes that you were having keeping marketing out of her life which is a, uh, a very, uh, very admirable goal totally in line with what you do, um, for a living. And I just wanted you to give us kind of an update now that you’ve had the time, time to go through these charged adolescent years and, uh, see how things are going.
00:31:31,869 –> 00:34:42,431 [Josh Golin]
Yeah. Um, I would say it’s a mixed bag. So my daughter, when she was in eighth grade, was having, um-I, I hope she doesn’t (laughs) mind me talking about this. She was having a bit of a hard time socially, um, in school and her closest friends were people from, like, summer camp who were not in school, and she wanted to keep in touch with them and she really started pushing for a phone during eighth grade. We had set out to make it to at least eighth grade. I think we were hoping to keep going a little bit longer. But we, um, we sat down with… My wife and I sat down with, with, with our daughter and we said, “Okay. We understand you wanna get a phone. Like, what are the rules that you think you should have? Come back to us and propose rules.” And so she thought about it for a little bit and she came back and she said, “I will not use my phone for an hour or more before bedtime. I will not sleep with it in my room. You can put something on there that monitors how much time I’m spending on it, but you can’t put on something that allows you to see, like, my messages. I need my privacy. And I won’t get social media for at least a year.” And seemed pretty good. Like, I was pretty… I was impressed. I… Like, those are good rules. I don’t… You know, I don’t know if she had some help from the internet and, like, things to say to your parents (laughs) when you’re trying to convince them to get your phone or… No, I kid. I don’t… I think she actually did the work herself. And so we said, “All right.” And we got her the phone. She definitely uses it more than I would like. You know, first thing when she wakes up in the morning, before she even goes to the bathroom, she’s checking that phone. Um, she can disappear into it same way her father can in, in ways that is definitely, uh, frustrating. Um, and, and in general, I think she uses it too much. But I think one of the nice things is that she really hasn’t wanted to get on social media and I think that has to do with sort of the upbringing and the values that we’ve instilled with her- in her. And I think perhaps the nicest thing about it is she has a group of friends in high school who, even though they’re all on social media, they value their friendship with my daughter enough that they will communicate with her by text. Um, you know, Snap is where the conversations are generally occurring in my daughter’s milieu and I think it makes her feel really good that her friends care enough about her and the- her friendship that they will tran- you know, that they will have their conversations by text. And, and, you know… And, and to be honest, like, her, her year has come and gone, she’s not on social media. I think if her friends weren’t doing that, I think she would have joined social media. I think it… And then she would be getting a lot more of this crap, both the commercial crap and the really harmful content and, and, and all of that that comes with social media. So, so, you know, is it perfect? Absolutely not. Does she use her phone much more than I wish she would? Definitely. But is she driving her own experience and, and setting her own limits in a way that I think is better than, than nothing? Definitely. And so, you know, we continue to check in with her about it and, yeah. And if you have me on in five years again, we can, we can see how it’s going (laughs) then too.
00:34:42,431 –> 00:34:50,371 [John Lanza]
(laughs) Well, first, I, I do wanna congratulate you of- on, uh, making it through the, uh, the wait… What was it? The Wait to 8th Movement. I think that’s-
00:34:50,371 –> 00:34:50,391 [Josh Golin]
Yes.
00:34:50,391 –> 00:35:29,751 [John Lanza]
… uh, yeah. We, we fell down at, uh, sixth I think and, and I, and I lamented that and, uh, we, we were both going back and forth with the guilt that we felt in different areas of… Uh, you, you were feeling some guilt in the allowance side, I was feeling some guilt of allowing social media early. We also realized that guilt is not the most productive emotion so I wanna ask you a question with regard to that, the communication via text. Were, were those friends that she had, were they part of the community that was kind of the kind of commercial-free community that you had before or are these completely new friends?
00:35:29,751 –> 00:35:36,511 [Josh Golin]
Completely new because we, um, we moved right before my dau- we moved to a new state right before my daughter started high school, so these are, these are-
00:35:36,511 –> 00:35:36,651 [John Lanza]
Okay.
00:35:36,651 –> 00:36:10,571 [Josh Golin]
… completely new. We don’t know their parents, we don’t… Yeah, um, so, so… But I think, um, you know, she, she is at a school, a private school, that really values, um, student independence. There’s a working farm on the ph- on campus, so I think, you know… I think we’re also very privileged and lucky th- and that it… And it probably attracts a certain type of family as well. And so, you know, I don’t, I don’t pretend that my experience is necessarily, you know, indicative of, of what other families might be going through.
00:36:10,571 –> 00:36:31,511 [John Lanza]
Got it. Yeah. And just for context, because that was one of the things that we talked about was that you were fortunate and probably to a large extent because it is what you do that your, uh, community when she was school age was very much in line with, uh, this idea of keeping marketing out of the eyes of children, and so that’s, that’s why I asked that question. So thanks-
00:36:31,511 –> 00:36:31,731 [Josh Golin]
Yeah.
00:36:31,731 –> 00:37:14,811 [John Lanza]
… for, uh, thanks for addressing that. So now, uh, I do have a question that, uh, our producer, Erin, put to me ’cause she ran into this just yesterday and I, I, I reached out and asked her about questions. She said, so her daughter who’s in daycare, preschool age, uh, she took her to a book fair that was hosted there and the daughter, she immediately gravitated to these brand-centric titles like Disney, Barbie characters, and, you know, she and her husband are pretty conscious about the media she consumes, but they can’t control what she’s talking about with her friends at school and this is not (laughs) an uncommon issue. How do we navigate this very common issue for parents of younger kids?
00:37:14,811 –> 00:39:00,251 [Josh Golin]
Yeah. It’s a great question and it’s, and it’s a hard one and I think one thing to understand, it’s important to understand is, like, when, you know, sometimes as adults maybe we make distinctions between these characters like, oh, that… You know, Shrek in the movie, that’s the real Shrek and then Shrek on the, the, on the cereal box, that’s like the marketing Shrek and, and we… Like, that’s different, right? But to a four-year-old, Shrek is Shrek or Paw Patrol is Paw Patrol and there’s no difference. So I think first of all, we need to understand what kids are feeling. Like, k- you know, kids form attachments to characters. That is a natural part of, of, of being a young child is forming these relationships, um, thinking, you know, maybe giving that character a voice, thinking that you can actually talk to a fictional character and having a real love and trust in that character. And so we need to recognize that, like, these are not just, like, silly feelings but these are, these are really deeply held feelings when, when kids see that Disney princess and they really, really want it. Like, it’s… Like, it’s important to acknowledge that, right? But I also think, like, when kids are young, we can start having conversations with, with them about our values. I think this is a great chance to have, like… And, and, and to say, “You know, that Disney princess is there just to make you want that book, but that book probably isn’t as good as this other book.” And in fact we know, right? These, like, the… At the book fairs, the, the Disney princess books and the Star Wars books, I mean these things are slapped together in, like, 90 minutes. Like they’re… You know, they’re not even written by an author, they’re written by a marketer, right? I… And so… And obviously that’s a little too much to get into with a young child, but I think it’s a real opportunity-
00:39:00,251 –> 00:39:00,291 [John Lanza]
(laughs)
00:39:00,291 –> 00:39:47,331 [Josh Golin]
… to talk about your values and to say, “You know, that character is only on that book because they are trying to make you want that book and in fact, I’m your parent and I know what’s better for you than the, the person who put that character on that book, and this book over here is better for you. It’s got a better story, it’s more what our f- this is the kind of s- these are the kind of books that our family reads.” You know, you also don’t wanna make, like, instill judgment in the kid where they’re, like, you know, judging their peers because they’re reading the Disney princess book. That’s not the goal here, right? But I think it’s a great opportunity to establish what your boundaries are and what your values are and to say, you know, “Oh, we may watch a movie with those Disney princesses, but we’re not gonna buy anything with them on that because that’s, that’s just them trying to trick us into wanting something that we don’t need.”
00:39:47,331 –> 00:40:02,891 [John Lanza]
Yeah. You know, the other thing that you can do is almost all those stories are based on other stories, is find the origin story, right? And just say, “Oh, you know, this is, you know, where that story comes from? That’s great. Let’s try, let’s, let’s read this story where it comes from.” Yeah, that’s great.
00:40:02,891 –> 00:40:10,931 [Josh Golin]
That’s a, that’s a great thing to do and I think kids will get really excited, like, when they start hearing the similarities, like, “There’s, there, tha- that’s the witch.” Yeah.
00:40:11,706 –> 00:41:23,285 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah. And you could ev- yeah, then, then it becomes less judgmental. You could even ma- draw the parallels, um, you don’t even have to call them out, but if there- if your child draws the parallels, then you can kind of agree with them on that, so that- that seems like… Because all of them do come from… They’re- they’re not original stories, go back to the original stories. All right, so how can parents who are, a- aren’t, you know, you know, aren’t running Fair Play like you were, right, discover communities where they can feel… And can they discover communities to help them raise kids that are kind of not f- th- that- that, where there’s less kind of marketing to children going on? Like are there, uh, are there easy ways to discover these communities where, you know, you, like you said in our conversation, it’s like people know what you do, so you’re naturally going to attract people who are kind of not so into having, or are into having their kids have a commercial-free childhood. But that’s not easy for a lot of parents because the majority of us are allowing our kids to do this. And you want to turn this from a collective action problem to a collective action solution. How do we do that? Any suggestions, Josh?
00:41:23,285 –> 00:43:56,805 [Josh Golin]
Sure. I think, uh, th- three, three possibilities. So first of all, I mean, I think most of us at this point are connected to most of the, most if not all of the parents in our, in our children’s classes, right? By, by email, you know, we have s- we have some means of communicating with them. So three possibilities of things to send out on a class email list or, or a grade level email list. “Hey, I’m reading The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. Is anybody interested in… Is anybody else reading it? Is anybody interested in reading it? Is anybody interested in getting together and talking about it afterwards?” And I bet you’ll get a decent response because that book has been number one on the New York Times bestseller list for a while and it is really at the forefront of parents’ minds. And so that can just be a way of starting a conversation, then you get to see who shares your values, um, maybe, um, convince some parents to, to come over to what you’re thinking, um, but just, y- it’s a great way to meet people and start having these conversations, and, and that can start building community. Or you can go a little more activist. Um, you can say, “Hey, I’m interested in doing the Wait Until 8th pledge and holding out until eighth grade to get my child a cell phone, a smartphone. Is anybody else interested in doing that? Is anybody else interested in getting together and talking about it?” Again, another way you get to meet those other parents, you find out who their kids are, um, it’s a great way of creating that community. If the kids are a little older, um, I would do the ph- phone-free school policy. We actually have, um, with our partners at the Phone-Free School Movement, uh, uh, a toolkit for how to go phone-free as a school and, and how to implement the policy. But I think, um, “Hey, I, you know, I’m interested in talking to the administration about a, a policy around using phones in schools. Is anybody else interested? If so, let’s have a meeting first so we can get to know each other and, and make sure we’re on the same page.” And again, there’s- there’s all these touch points around, you know, it can either be just around… Not just, it can be around, like, learning and discovery with Jon Haidt’s book, or it can be around an activism project with, with phone-free schools or, or the Wait Until 8th pledge. Any of those things I think are great conversation starters, and you’ll quickly find out, um, that you’re not alone. That is my, that is my promise to you. If you take those steps, you will not… You know, five years ago, you might have gotten, you might have been met with deafening silence. Um, in 2024, you will, I guarantee you will hear back from other parents, “Uh, God, I’ve been thinking about that. I’ve been reading about that book. I’m terrified. What can we do?” Like, those are, that’s what’s gonna happen.
00:43:56,805 –> 00:45:03,825 [John Lanza]
Those are three great suggestions, Josh. Thank you. In our last conversation, uh, we talked about this shared desire, um… I’m ty- I’m, I’m tying this back into our Art of Allowance podcast money format. Again, the reason we’re having this conversation is this all ties in together because marketing and how we’re marketed to totally ties into how we are going to perceive brands, how we’re going to be able to kind of fight the, the desire that we have, you know, ’cause, uh, Charlie Munger said, “Envy, not greed, is really what drives the world,” right? And marketing is all designed, every ad can basically be summed up as, “Your life is not good enough and this product will make it better.” And so that’s why all of this ties into the Money Smart movement. But in a more direct way, we talked about our kind of shared desire to have our kids see money as nothing more than a tool, and I just wanted to ask you some questions about money. You can also tie this into kind of media, your perspectives on that as well, just to get a sense of your upbringing and discovering kind of where these convictions came from, if you’re comfortable with that, Josh.
00:45:03,825 –> 00:45:05,365 [Josh Golin]
Sure, sure. Why not? (laughs)
00:45:05,365 –> 00:45:13,105 [John Lanza]
Okay. So who is the most influential person in your life when it comes to the way that you think about money and/or media?
00:45:13,105 –> 00:47:22,745 [Josh Golin]
I think, uh, I think my parents were the most influential when it comes to thinking about money. You know, I think we were, we were solidly middle class growing up, but we lived in a town that was rich. It was on a hill, um, and, and like most towns on a hill, the, the higher up the hill you went, the more money people had, uh, and we were at the bottom of the hill. And I think that was har- like, you know, that was hard for me, particularly as I got to, like, junior high school. I got to be a preteen and teen, like, you know, not, not having the same clothes as, as some of my peers. You know, they all went skiing all the time in the winter, and I remember my mom telling me, you know, “When I can go skiing, you can go skiing.” So that was hard, but I think my parents were so comfortable in their values and so, like, not, um, not worried about it, and I think that was maybe a little infuriating, um, when I was 13, and they were definitely incredibly embarrassing in their attitudes towards money when, when I was 13. But as I got older, I, and I think this is very common with kids in sort of an arc, like you, you either get embarrassed or you rebel against your parents, and then, you know, their values once you hit your 20s and 30s really start to be something that resonate with you. I think that’s, uh, I think that’s what happened with me. Like, I think, uh, you know, obviously I enjoy doing things that cost money, but, uh, but I also enjoy doing thing- a lot of things that don’t cost money, and I also, you know, my wife and I, one of the things we share is we don’t let our pursuit of money sort of dictate our lives. And, and I think that really came from my parents who taught me very early that, that, um, having a satisfying and happy life has nothing to do with having mo- you know, once you have your basic needs met, has nothing to do with money, and, and, and that you, you know, living your values is just so important and, and when you are so concerned about what other people have, then you’re not living your values, you’re living theirs.
00:47:22,745 –> 00:47:34,305 [John Lanza]
Hear, hear. All right, Josh, are you ready to go through the gauntlet that is the Fast & Fun Round, albeit a modified Fast & Fun Round since you answered our previous Fast & Fun Round questions?
00:47:34,305 –> 00:47:35,345 [Josh Golin]
All right. I’m ready.
00:47:35,345 –> 00:47:44,085 [John Lanza]
Okay. What is the one thing about yourself, your family, or your organization that most people do not know about? And you can do all three of those things if you want.
00:47:44,085 –> 00:48:43,436 [Josh Golin]
Um, I think one thing that people may not know about our organization is that we are not a bunch of wild-eyed radicals, uh, who all live in the woods and cover up our television screens or don’t even have one. You know, I think we…Many of us, um, you know, enjoy watching movies and- and going online and- and doing stuff in- in moderation. We have all, you know, I think our politics are, you know, we’re- we have a staff of 13, I think our politics runs the gamut. And so, I think, yeah, I think particularly when we were called commercial-free childhood, it conjured up a specific image of- of- of who we were. And in fact, you know, I think we’re- we’re very much like everyone else in- (laughs) in- in- in a lot of ways. And I think that speaks, uh, in fact to- to that these are issues that touch everybody, and you don’t need to be a zealot to be concerned about how corporations are shaping children’s, uh, values and behaviors.
00:48:43,436 –> 00:48:49,416 [John Lanza]
Fair enough. What is the best piece advice that you have ever received?
00:48:49,416 –> 00:49:30,535 [Josh Golin]
Years ago, I met Ralph Nader, um, who is one of my heroes as- as a consumer advocate and- and also incredibly strong in speaking out against marketing to children, and he said, “Just throw everything that you can at the wall, see what sticks, and then pour all your energy into what’s sticking and working.” And as I see, you know, that was 15 years ago when there w- we didn’t have a lot of capacity to throw that much against the wall. Now that we’ve grown and there’s really, like, a movement around this, there’s so much more going up against the wall and a lot of it is sticking. And so that was really great advice, and it’s been exciting and fun to see it come to fruition.
00:49:30,535 –> 00:49:37,015 [John Lanza]
What important truth do you know that very few people agree with you on?
00:49:37,015 –> 00:50:02,835 [Josh Golin]
That is a tough one. Uh, uh, yeah, I know. That New Jersey has better pizza than New York on- on- on average. Um, there is great pizza in New York, but if you were just going to walk in any place at random and you want that slice to be edible, and not even edible but good, New Jersey has the best baseline of pizza in the entire country.
00:50:02,835 –> 00:50:11,135 [John Lanza]
Well, you’re talking to a Jersey boy, I’m not gonna deny that. I think you’re right on. That’s probably driven by the fact that the tourists are going to New York and not New Jersey.
00:50:11,135 –> 00:50:17,055 [Josh Golin]
And a l- and- and I- so many Italians settled in New Jersey, um, but- but yeah, it’s, come visit.
00:50:17,055 –> 00:50:20,555 [John Lanza]
It is fantastic pizza and fantastic bagels.
00:50:20,555 –> 00:50:20,715 [Josh Golin]
Yes.
00:50:20,715 –> 00:50:34,915 [John Lanza]
Um, last time, you mentioned, uh, your mentor, Susan Linn’s book, The Case, uh, for Make Believe. So what’s another book, podcast, or really any media that you go back to or you gift the most often?
00:50:34,915 –> 00:51:17,855 [Josh Golin]
Um, I have been listening a ton lately to a fairly new podcast called Scrolling to Death, um, which is a podcast, um, that features, um, experts and parents who have experienced- whose kids have experienced harm online. It’s, um, it’s heartbreaking, some of the stories, but it is, um, it is so good, uh, to be getting these stories out there to help people understand the way that, um, that social media is- is really rigged against us, and- and- and the ways in which it’s harmful. And so even though it’s, um, often a really tough listen, I listen to every episode of that podcast, ’cause I think it’s important to hear those voices.
00:51:17,855 –> 00:51:34,735 [John Lanza]
Wow, I had not heard about that. We will link to everything we’ve talked about, including, uh, Scrolling to Death, in the show notes, so thank you for sharing that with us, uh, Josh. You made it through the gauntlet. So how can people find you on (laughs) uh, social media and/or the web?
00:51:34,735 –> 00:51:56,935 [Josh Golin]
So the best place to find us is at fairplayfor, F-O-R, kids.org, fairplayforkids.org. We’re also on Twitter and Facebook, but I don’t… There’s links from our website, I- I don’t look at that stuff myself, and I don’t, um… You know, even if it’s our social media, I don’t encourage anybody to go on social media. So fairplayforkids.org is the best place to- to keep up with us.
00:51:56,935 –> 00:52:04,755 [John Lanza]
Makes sense. And what is one action you’d like any listener to take that would be helpful for your organization?
00:52:04,755 –> 00:52:15,795 [Josh Golin]
Um, I would say to contact their congressperson and ask them to co-sponsor the Kids Online Safety Act. We’ve got a couple of months to get this bill passed, and so every voice matters.
00:52:15,795 –> 00:52:34,195 [John Lanza]
Well, that is great. Uh, we don’t always have something that is so timely, so we will definitely get this podcast out so that, uh, people can act on it. And again, I appreciate you coming on, Josh. This was a lot of fun. We always learn- I always learn a ton from you, and I appreciate all your time and your knowledge, and thanks again.
00:52:34,195 –> 00:52:35,015 [Josh Golin]
Thanks, John.
00:52:35,015 –> 00:53:22,655 [John Lanza]
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