“They [kids] know what they’re experiencing. They may have insight into how it makes them feel or what it makes them think. It’s just much more effective and kind of more fair and appropriate to have kids be part of that conversation.”
— Erin McNeill
Host John Lanza and guest Erin McNeill discuss the importance of starting the media literacy conversation with children early, just like parents can do with the financial literacy conversation. Erin explains that kids are likely willing to understand and decode the myriad media messages they face. She even suggests that parents have conversations with teachers about integrating media literacy into classrooms and advocate for it to become a required skill taught in schools, just like reading and math. Erin and John also highlight the importance of digital wellness, the process of helping kids recognize targeted marketing, the connection between media literacy and financial literacy and the challenges and opportunities presented by AI.
Erin McNeill is the CEO and Founder of Media Literacy Now. She established this nonprofit in 2013 to address the messages her children were receiving through cartoons and advertisements. Erin and Media Literacy Now are leading the grassroots movement to ensure all students learn the 21st-century media literacy skills they need for health, well-being, economic participation and citizenship.
Links (From the Show)
- Media Literacy Now
- Media- and Money-Smart Mentions
- Robert Therrien’s Under the Table exhibit at The Broad
- Jonathan Haidt’s book, The Anxious Generation
- John’s newsletter on Haidt’s four norms
- Haidt’s appearance on Tyler Cowen’s podcast
- John’s third picture book, Joe the Monkey and Friends Learn About Spending Smart (You must create an account to read the digital version. And don’t forget to download the corresponding reading guide!)
- John’s short essay on “free” stuff
- Fairplay, formerly known as the Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood
- Communication theorist Marshall McLuhan
- Sociobiologist E. O. Wilson
- Kevin Kelly’s book, The Inevitable
- The Planet Money podcast
- Shari Graydon’s book, Made You Look
Show Notes (Find what’s most interesting to you!)
- What led Erin to found Media Literacy Now [2:48]
- Just what is media literacy? [4:07]
- Erin defines the concept of digital citizenship and explains its relationship to media literacy. [5:05]
- Digital wellness and its impact [6:17]
- Approaching child influencers [8:21]
- How the cereal aisle can help parents start a media literacy conversation with their kids [10:58]
- The journey to introduce media literacy in schools [15:31]
- Navigating smartphone and social media norms [22:27]
- Videogames: Vice or virtue? [28:02]
- Erin shares her main tip for media literacy conversations. [32:26]
- Manipulation is enlightening for kids. [37:32]
- How Erin talked to her children about money [40:15]
- Linking commercialization, advertising and money [42:01]
- The pervasiveness of media literacy [45:02]
- The amplification of AI [45:58]
- Erin explains what the term “media-empowered” means to her. [52:58]
- Experiences without electricity [53:16]
- Being aware of phone usage [53:45]
- “How is your entertainment media shaping your beliefs about yourself?” [54:03]
- Erin’s media literacy recommendations [55:07]
- Follow the work of Media Literacy Now [56:23]
- Erin’s request: Talk to someone about media literacy! [56:53]
Click here for the full transcript.
If you liked this episode …
Interested in diving deeper into the videogame debate? In his Art of Allowance Podcast episode, child psychology researcher Chuck Kalish argues that videogames teach financial literacy better than books. Tune in at 1:13:24 for his reasoning.
Need more resources to protect your kids from rampant consumerism? Josh Golin, the Executive Director of Fairplay, shares many recommendations to protect children from both the obvious and the subtle pitfalls of materialism and social media. For a preview of his suggestions, stream this video short.
Want to hear more about technology’s impact on the future? Author, explorer and visionary Kevin Kelly defines his “protopia” concept during his podcast appearance. Listen in at 4:57 as he explains why this notion is better than its “utopia” counterpart.
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Full Transcript
This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 74, featuring host John Lanza and guest Erin McNeill.
00:00:00,119 [John Lanza]
Hello, and welcome to Episode 74 of the Art of Allowance Podcast. I’m your host, John Lanza.
00:00:08,659 [Erin McNeill]
There’s not an advocacy group saying we should teach math in school, right? It’s just, you know, it’s accepted. Of course you’re gonna teach math. Of course you’re gonna teach reading, you know. I want to get there, where of course you’re gonna teach media literacy in school. It’s clearly a survival skill, an essential skill for everything. For, you know, family life, for health, for work. Um,
00:00:30,959 [Erin McNeill]
for your, you know, f-financial life and civic life. All of it. Um, of course we’re gonna teach it. So when we get there, then, you know, my job is done.
00:00:41,140 [John Lanza]
[intro music plays]
00:00:48,099 [John Lanza]
Today I am talking with Erin McNeill about the importance of starting the media literacy conversation with children early, just like we parents can do with the financial literacy conversation. Erin explains that kids are likely willing to understand and decode the myriad media messages they face. She even suggests that parents have conversations with teachers about integrating media literacy into classrooms, and advocate for it to become a required skill taught in schools, just like reading and math. Erin and I go on to talk about the importance of digital wellness, the process of helping kids recognize targeted marketing, the connection between media literacy and financial literacy, and the challenges and opportunities presented by AI. We cover a lot of ground. Erin McNeill is the CEO and founder of Media Literacy Now. She established this non-profit in 2013 to address the messages her children, who are now adults, were receiving through cartoons and advertisements. And Erin and Media Literacy Now are leading the grassroots movement to ensure all students learn the 21st century media literacy skills they need for health, well-being, economic participation, and digital citizenship. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Erin McNeill.
00:02:22,799 [John Lanza]
Before we dive directly into the show, I wanted to let you know that I have a free email newsletter I send out every Monday, and it’s a great way to make sure you never miss an episode of the Art of Allowance Podcast. You can find out more at the end of today’s conversation, including how to sign up. And now, on with the show. Today, I am speaking with Erin McNeill. Welcome, Erin.
00:02:46,999 [Erin McNeill]
Hi John, thanks.
00:02:49,519 [John Lanza]
So Erin, you created Media Literacy Now because you were concerned about the messages your sons, who are now grown adults, uh, were receiving back when they were kids. And I think a good place to start is with you telling us more about you, and kind of what led you to found your organization.
00:03:09,979 [Erin McNeill]
Sure. When my kids were smaller, I was noticing the kind of messages that they were experiencing all day, almost all the time. And a lot of those messages were things that I wouldn’t necessarily want them to be learning. And you know, kids just absorb things like sponges. So I started to write about that, write about marketing to kids and learning more and more. And eventually I realized that media literacy was such a big part of this, and such a big part of the solution, um, to making sure the kids could understand what they’re being, you know, um, approached with, what they’re experiencing, and how they can ask some questions so that they’re not just accepting it all. Uh, so I started Media Literacy Now
00:03:53,139 [Erin McNeill]
as a way to make sure that those skills are getting to the classroom, to the K-12 classroom where I thought, “That’s a great place for young people to get all of the skills that they need to understand the media messages that they’re experiencing.”
00:04:07,279 [John Lanza]
That makes sense. I think it’s probably good for us to start with a few definitions. So, uh, first, can you tell us what exactly you mean by “media literacy?”
00:04:17,939 [Erin McNeill]
So, media literacy is a skill, just like literacy, it’s the literacy for the 21st century, plus critical thinking skills. A person who has media liter skills, media literacy skills can decode the messages they’re seeing and also understand the systems in which those, uh, messages exist. Um, they’re able to,
00:04:40,299 [Erin McNeill]
uh, I’m sorry. They’re able to recognize the shaping effects
00:04:44,879 [Erin McNeill]
of those messages on themselves, on society. Uh, understand how it affects their beliefs and attitudes and behaviors. And then, very importantly, it’s the ability to participate in our global media environment. So create messages, distribute them, be effective in using them, and understand what you’re doing when you’re putting a message out.
00:05:05,199 [John Lanza]
That makes sense. And you were kind of, uh, alluding to something else you talk about, uh, when I was kind of looking around at you and your site and Media Literacy Now. You talk about this concept of digital citizenship.
00:05:17,019 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm.
00:05:17,359 [John Lanza]
So, why don’t you tell us what you mean by that and how the two tie together?
00:05:21,479 [Erin McNeill]
Well, there’s a lot of overlap between the two, but digital citizenship is, um, in a way it’s an outcome of media literacy. It’s, It’s using tools, communication tools effectively. It’s having, um, responsibility and, um, having a sense of ethics when you are maybe creating messages and, uh, distributing those messages and sharing.
00:05:44,799 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the idea of, uh, having ethics, uh, [laughs] whatever side you happen to be on in our-
00:05:52,279 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:05:52,379 [John Lanza]
… seemingly overly polarized society, um, is a great idea. To have open conversation. Uh, it’s funny ’cause so much of what you’re talking about kind of relates to, to-… my mission, how we kind of got into this, which is really about financial literacy.
00:06:07,327 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm.
00:06:07,407 [John Lanza]
Don’t love that term, but it is a, you know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s another literacy that our kids need to have. Obviously, media literacy and financial literacy very much go hand in hand. Something else that ties together is you guys talk about, uh, digital wellness, right? So we, in- in finance, there’s this term financial wellness that is used-
00:06:26,948 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:06:27,067 [John Lanza]
… to kind of describe people who are money empowered, I would, I’d say, right? So maybe tell us a little bit about this concept of digital wellness, assuming that it’s a concept that kind of makes sense to you, or perhaps there’s another concept, or term, or, uh, phrase or term that makes more sense. And how can we do a better job? I mean, we’re gonna dig into lots of specifics here, but raising kids who are, I would say, digitally empowered, and is, am I right in saying that that’s a kind of key part of this media literacy and, um, digital citizenship?
00:07:03,287 [Erin McNeill]
So digital wellness is about how we’re using the tools, and it’s a part of media literacy, definitely. You need to understand the systems, uh, and- and this is part of the system, is we carry around these phones all the time, and a lot of times we hear that kids are on them all the time. They are, uh, late at night scrolling, first thing in the morning scrolling. You know, how does that affect you? How does it affect the way you feel, um, the way you see the world, um, the way you interact with others? Is it interfering with you having real-life friends? So, um, that’s what digital wellness is about. It’s about how we’re using the tools and how they have, uh, an effect on us psychologically, emotionally, um, and- and being aware of that.
00:07:53,347 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:07:55,067 [John Lanza]
How do parents go about this process? Because, you know, it’s kind of like the, uh, the story, you know, talking to, uh, two fish and asking ’em, you know, uh, tell ’em they’re swimming around in water and they-
00:08:08,907 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:08:08,927 [John Lanza]
… they look at you and say, “What’s water?” It’s the same type of thing here, is like that is the kind of ocean that kids seem to be swimming in. So from the beginning… Well, you know what? I- I’m gonna, I’m gonna start with the question we were talking about right at the beginning of this conversation, which is our producer, Erin, um, and this may be very kind of niche to what’s happening with her, but I have a sense it’s kind of going on, uh, writ large acro- [laughs] for a lot of families, is, so her four-year-old was invited to a birthday party, and the theme was this child YouTuber influencer. Now, the- her child is four years old, right? The YouTuber, I think is, like, seven or eight years old. And how do… Uh, how should she explain this? How should she and her husband talk to, uh, her daughter about this? Should they talk to her daughter about this? Uh, because it’s, this is, it’s starting early, so-
00:09:05,827 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:09:06,087 [John Lanza]
… do you have any kind of tips, tactics, strategies we can use?
00:09:10,647 [Erin McNeill]
It’s crazy, right? Four years old and the parents are facilitating this, in fact, um, birthday party with other kids and- and introducing these little four-year-olds to an influencer.
00:09:21,347 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:22,087 [Erin McNeill]
Um,
00:09:23,407 [Erin McNeill]
you know, how do you talk to a four-year-old about that? I, I don’t know. A lot of parents talk about advertising to their kids when they’re young, that age. I did. Uh, you know, what, what is the product that you’re seeing and, you know, what the, what does this say in ad on television? You know, what does it seem to do? Can it really do that? So you start asking these questions and getting kids to think about that. Um, and then even marketing out on the, in the grocery store is a great place because, of course, um,
00:09:55,247 [Erin McNeill]
kids are at the grocery store with their parents.
00:09:57,007 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:09:57,367 [Erin McNeill]
Uh, look at the cereal aisle, right? Uh, you know, what do you see? What’s at, what’s at kid’s eye level? Why are there, you know, pictures of characters down on the bottom shelf, but not up on the high shelf? So you get them used to these kind of questions, um, and thinking about, thinking about these issues. So you, you know, you need to start providing some foundational, uh, skills for kids. Um, the, the whole influencer thing on social media is tough because it’s all designed to get around parents. You know, parents are up a lot, against a lot because there are huge, um,
00:10:34,907 [Erin McNeill]
huge resources at stake here. Huge corporations who have done all sorts of studies on how to get around the parents and how to influence kids and manipulate kids. Little children being- being influencers, probably a great way to make money for somebody, and a lot of people see this also as parents and they wanna be, you know, they wanna get into the game as well.
00:10:58,507 [John Lanza]
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I just had this thought because you talked about the fact that at kids’ eye level you have the pictures, you know, the-
00:11:07,567 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:11:07,587 [John Lanza]
… characters are there in the cereal aisle. So here in Los Angeles we have this, um, museum, the Broad, and they have this art. I don’t know who the artist is, but it’s an exhibit where you walk in, and it’s a gigantic table and chairs, just a normal seeming table and chairs. But it gives you the kid’s eye perspective on the table, and it’s a-
00:11:32,127 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:11:32,207 [John Lanza]
… really fun exhibit to spend a little time walking around and getting a sense of what it’s like to be a kid or maybe even a dog. And I was thinking it w- it would be an interesting exhibit to do something like that that is focused on media literacy, that’s giving the parents the sense of what it’s like to walk through [laughs] a store ’cause, like you said, that’s a really, a great place to start. We say the same thing on the money side, is like it’s a great place-
00:11:57,627 [Erin McNeill]
Hm
00:11:57,647 [John Lanza]
… to start the money conversations, you know, even for a kid who’s two or three and is still kind of figuring out whether they should eat the money or they think a dime is worth less-
00:12:07,407 [Erin McNeill]
Yes
00:12:07,427 [John Lanza]
… than a, than a penny because it’s smaller.The point really being that you’re just getting them used… It’s the building blocks of literacies. The same thing here, building blocks of media literacy. Um, I like that idea of using the stores, but giving the parents a perspective of the kids in the stores might clue in, might help us understand how important it is for us to teach our kids from a young age ’cause I bet you most parents aren’t thinking media literacy at preschool level. Is that the case?
00:12:39,319 [Erin McNeill]
I would bet that they’re not. You’re right, John. Uh, [laughs] I think if, if they had learned media literacy in 12th grade, then they might be thinking about media literacy when they’ve got kids. But, uh, that’s a fascinating idea. And it reminds me that one time I was walking through the grocery store with my two little nephews who were pretty small, maybe two and five or something, and, uh, I had an eye-opening experience because they started pointing out all the Disney princesses in the grocery store- [laughs]
00:13:08,480 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:13:08,759 [Erin McNeill]
… which I had never noticed. [laughs] So that was very interesting. Um, yeah. We had a, we had a, a project with my, with my kids. Um, they would, of course, pick up, uh, sugared cereal and put them in the cart. And I’d say, “No, I don’t think so.” So we decided to have a rule about the level of sugar. And-
00:13:29,919 [John Lanza]
Hm
00:13:30,060 [Erin McNeill]
… uh, so we came to an agreement on what’s appropriate level of sugar in their cereal. You know, and, of course, they’re looking. They’re a little bit older at this point, maybe 12, 14, um, and so they’re looking a little bit higher u- up on the shelf. Uh, but there’s still lots of characters and colors and things. So, um,
00:13:46,139 [Erin McNeill]
my son Patrick takes, uh, Rice Krispies off the shelf and he puts it in the cart. And I kinda give him, you know, a raised eyebrow. [laughs]
00:13:54,659 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:13:54,679 [Erin McNeill]
And he says, “Oh, you, you would think, Mom… You would think this would be high in sugar ’cause look at the little characters.” But, you know, he showed me on the back, “Oh, it actually meets, meets our criteria.” [laughs]
00:14:03,679 [John Lanza]
Well, go, go deeper on that. Like, how did you have… It sounds like you had some kind of back and forth. Is… What was that back… ‘Cause I think a lot of parents will just, you know, you just kind of reserve yourself to there are certain battles you can fight and there are certain battles you’re not gonna fight. And I think that’s, um… T- You know, what battles are worth fighting? But it might be g-
00:14:25,519 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:14:25,539 [John Lanza]
… it might be nice to get some insight. Can you go a little bit deeper on how that worked for you guys?
00:14:30,679 [Erin McNeill]
Well, just like when they’re learning media literacy in school, learning these critical thinking questions, talking with their peers, um, talking with the teachers, um, it could be really effe- You know, the effective part is that they’re doing this work on their own. They’re doing the investigation on their own. Um, a lot of advocates say that, uh, okay, there’s no, there’s no real guidelines right now, especially with social media and all that sort of thing, but we can’t just, um, you know, place these guidelines on the kids. Just say, “These are the guidelines. Just follow them.”
00:15:04,459 [John Lanza]
Right.
00:15:04,619 [Erin McNeill]
It really is so much more effective to bring them into the conversation. They know what they’re experiencing. They may have insight into how it makes them feel or me- what it makes them think. Uh, it’s just much more effective and ki- kind of more, you know, fair and appropriate to, to have kids be part of that conversation of, of, you know, what are the guidelines, um, when you’re using these tools.
00:15:27,939 [John Lanza]
That is a good segue into something I wanted to ask you about, because, um, I know one of the ways that you got started with this was that interaction you had, I think, with your son’s fifth grade teacher, right? And then you start-
00:15:40,799 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:15:41,019 [John Lanza]
… that’s kind of how you started working in schools. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that story. And the reason I bring it up is just the reaction was so illuminating from the kids because you realize, yeah, they are thinking about this. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?
00:15:57,479 [Erin McNeill]
Sure. I had been learning a lot about media literacy, and I came across a program that I thought might be appropriate for the fifth grade. And I had, uh, you know, a good relationship with my son’s fifth grade teacher, so we started a conversation about it. Um, and she said, “Okay, yeah. Let’s, let’s give it a try. Let’s do some media literacy in the classroom.” And she decided to do it really toward the end of the year, uh, June, um, like just about this time. And it was because all of their other requirements were done, so they had some time. But also, but at that time, you know, the kids are usually kind of checked out. It’s hot. Um, they’re, they’re not that, uh, interested in most things and it’s hard to get their attention, but, uh, she started talking with them about ads, and showing ads and getting, uh, some discussion about what are the, you know, what are the techniques that they’re using to get your attention and what, what might be, um, persuasive here? What might be manipulative here? What are the words? Uh, and the kids were just so engaged. All the hands were up. It was amazing. And I just realized, wow, they’re waiting for somebody to talk to, to them about this. You know, they are immersed in this, and they have a lot to say, if only we’d ask them. So it was, it was very interesting and, and it was a lot of fun. The kids had a lot of fun. Then they made their own ads, and that’s where the learning is really solidified when you, you know, when you do it yourself.
00:17:20,199 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:20,219 [Erin McNeill]
Then you understand this is how, you know, you manipulate somebody. Well, you know, not that we want to teach them that, but. [laughs]
00:17:28,139 [John Lanza]
Yep. I mean, there’s a reason why they teach, you know, Machiavelli in school. It’s you-
00:17:32,519 [Erin McNeill]
Right.
00:17:32,619 [John Lanza]
… gotta be aware of- [laughs]
00:17:34,139 [Erin McNeill]
[laughs]
00:17:34,419 [John Lanza]
… what’s actually being… What’s, what’s, what’s on offer from people who are manipulating you so you can-
00:17:39,639 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:17:39,759 [John Lanza]
… understand-
00:17:40,899 [Erin McNeill]
And how does it work?
00:17:41,579 [John Lanza]
… um, how to… Yeah, how does it work? Now-
00:17:43,939 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:17:43,959 [John Lanza]
… I’ve, uh… My immediate thought goes back to ho- So that’s fifth grade, and I know you guys have d- you… Media Literacy Now has done some incredible work in the schools. I mean, I think the numbers that I saw on your site where you went in 2013, where you had three bills in three states, to around now you’re now at 29 bills in 17 states. And some of those states are doing K through 12, so it immediately makes me think of the story we were talking about with our producer Erin and her daughter. Like, is that something that sh- Now, she’s in Florida. I don’t know what Florida status is, but that they can talk to a teacher. You know, is it too early to mention to the kindergarten teacher? ‘Cause that could be a, a sly way to get those lessons a-… into kids, but I don’t know how they’re worked into the curriculum, if they are worked into the curriculum. Maybe give us a sense of how this might be working. I know it’s gonna be state by state, but let’s maybe start with-
00:18:36,695 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:18:36,875 [John Lanza]
… the best-case scenario state.
00:18:38,935 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah, so we’ve been working to find ways to support teachers who want to integrate this into the curriculum, but it always helps for the teachers to have the support of both the parents and the administration, the community. So, uh, we recommend that parents definitely start the conversation with the teachers. “Is this, is this your plan? Are you going to teach media literacy in kindergarten?” You know, um, “Is it taught anywhere in the schools?” Uh, that’s a really good, great way to start kind of your advocacy journal, the way, journey, the way I did in, um, my school with my fifth grade, with my son’s fifth grade teacher.
00:19:16,236 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:19:17,955 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah.
00:19:17,975 [John Lanza]
And are there resources? We can put these all in the show notes. So-
00:19:22,995 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:19:23,195 [John Lanza]
… are there… I know that you have a map, for example, that will show kind of what states are doing what, and they will show kind of which ones have kind of K-12, which ones are recomme- or, have it as a requirement, or have it so that it’s embedded. So we can certainly put those links in there, but do you have any advice? Let’s just say that, uh… Is it all just relationship based? In other words, you say, “Go to this… Go to our site. Find out if your state has it built in,” and that makes the conversation easier? Or what if the state doesn’t have it built in, what is a good way for parents to kind of get this conversation going in their schools?
00:20:02,535 [Erin McNeill]
You know, the way the schools are in this country, they’re, they’re very independent. Ev- every state is separate, every school is separate, so a lot of times, it takes some champion in the schools. Uh, when we have, uh, laws that have been passed, that gives advocates something to, to work with. So to say, you know, “Look, this is required. How are you doing, uh, with this?” You can go to the school board or to the, um, Department of Education and say, “Where, where do things stand with this requirement?” You know, but it doesn’t need to be… Um, it doesn’t need to be required. It can be something where, uh, we’re just accepting that media literacy needs to be part of K-12. Once it is like English and math, you know, nobody’s, uh, there’s not an advocacy group saying, “We should teach math in school,” right?
00:20:49,815 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:20:50,555 [Erin McNeill]
It’s just, you know, it’s accepted. Of course you’re gonna teach math. Of course you’re gonna teach reading. You know, I wanna get there, where of course you’re gonna teach media literacy in school.
00:20:59,455 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:20:59,875 [Erin McNeill]
It’s clearly a survival skill, an essential skill for everything. For, you know, family life, for health, for work. Um,
00:21:08,555 [Erin McNeill]
for your, you know, f- financial life and civic life, all of it. Um, of course we’re gonna teach it. So when we get there, then, you know, my job is done.
00:21:19,135 [John Lanza]
Got a long way to go there, right?
00:21:20,275 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah, we do. We do.
00:21:21,355 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:21:21,375 [Erin McNeill]
But we’re getting there. We’re building momentum. It’s, it’s lately, you know, we’re really building a lot of momentum. A lot of people are really interested to learn more about how, how it works, and, you know, what kind of solutions, uh, there are.
00:21:33,675 [John Lanza]
Yeah. And we’ll, you know, I, I will continue… Uh, you know, I, I, as I, I,
00:21:38,015 [John Lanza]
we went back and forth in the… before we, um, had this conversation ’cause I don’t wanna get too wonky, um, with regard-
00:21:45,435 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:21:45,455 [John Lanza]
… to the school side of things. Um, but like you, you know, financial literacy is in a similar position, which is people are, you know, almost every parent would agree that there should be some kind of financial literacy in schools. But even if you had the perfect setup of 100% of schools teaching some kind of financial literacy, first of all, it’s gonna be a small fraction of the time they’re spending in school. And when you think about, you know, how much foreign language you might take in school, and how much… Let’s say you took two years of Spanish, and now you’re in your 30s. And assuming you didn’t go live in Spain, how much Spanish do you remember? Not very much, right? So the school part is something that’s very, that’s important. Same thing with, uh, media literacy. Um, but it’s why we wanna talk about how parent- how we can empower parents to help their kids on the media literacy side. Particularly because this can feel so overwhelming, and I’ll, I’ll tell you a personal story. So, um, I’m sure you’re familiar with Jonathan Haidt’s new book, The Anxious Generation, right?
00:22:42,215 [Erin McNeill]
Yep, yeah.
00:22:43,195 [John Lanza]
Um, and so this really hit home for me, because
00:22:49,735 [John Lanza]
I listened to… I haven’t read the book yet, but I listened to him talk to Tyler Cowen, who is, uh, out of the Mercatus Center. They had a really interesting pod- podcast conversation. Haidt was talking about his four norms, right? And the four norms are, no smartphones before high school, no social media before 16, phone-free schools, and then he has more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world. And I wanted to go back to that kind of the no social media before 16 and the phone-free schools, because so many of us feel like… It’s a collective action issue, right? And that’s the thing that he’s talking about here. And, and we have to be wary of legislating things, um, such as, you know, no social media before 16. And his focus there is more on making sure that we hold accountable social media companies for actually age-gating these platforms so that kids, you know, can’t get on or they’re not supposed to be able to get on before they’re 13. But we know that kids who are five and seven are on some of these platforms, whether it’s TikTok or Instagram. So the, the age-gating is not being done effectively. But the reason I bring it up personally is that this happened with our 11-year-old. Like, she said that, and this was, it’s a collective action problem. We did not want her to have a phone or we would… I mean, she could have a dumb phone, but we didn’t want her to have a smartphone or social media access. But she made the case, and we kind of caved, that her, um, and we maybe we’re wrong about this, but her, uh, social kind of connectiveness would have been impacted by not having those things. And so it does become a collective action program, and I think a lot of parents feel the same way. Now, some parents are…… better at kind of holding their ground. But, uh, the whole point that Jonathan Haidt is trying to make is that most of us aren’t, right? [laughs] So for us who are, for your average parent, they’re going to cave, so we need better norms. So I wanted to get your thoughts on what, you know, Haidt’s talking about and The Anxious Generation. Is there hope for something like this? Because a lot of people will listen to these norms and think, “There’s no way that is going to happen.” And how do we forge a path where this might work? [laughs]
00:25:04,208 [Erin McNeill]
Well, certainly, uh, the awareness raising is happening, and that’s the good news. Uh-
00:25:11,888 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:25:12,047 [Erin McNeill]
… I would say when my kids were small, it wasn’t, uh, really a subject of discussion, um, you know, how, how you’re using media or, um, social media or the, the, the phone that you’re giving to your kids. And-
00:25:27,567 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:25:27,687 [Erin McNeill]
… uh, it’s now much more of a c- subject of conversation. You’re right, it’s, it’s very tough for parents right now. They may have ideas about, like you, ideas about how you want your kids to be interacting with the smartphone, and you’re up against all the other parents who-
00:25:45,367 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:25:45,867 [Erin McNeill]
… maybe have different ideas or didn’t really give it any thought so much, um, and are maybe not aware of how, what the risks are, what the, what the, um, what’s happening with their, with their kids online for whatever reason. You know, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s tough to be a parent right now, and, uh, it’s not because they necessarily weren’t, you know, paying attention, but, um, there’s a lot to be, pay attention to. Um-
00:26:11,207 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:26:12,067 [Erin McNeill]
So yeah, it’s definitely collective action. Uh, I know that it’s true, they probably will be affected socially. Uh, a lot of other kids are using the apps. Um, they are communicating. A lot of it’s very positive. You hear the worst, of course, but lots of it is very positive communication. And, you know, I know of one parent maybe that, uh, was, just held her ground, and her, her son did not have a smartphone, was only able to talk to his friends on the phone, and that was tough for both of them, but they found some real, real benefits from it. You know? Uh, for one thing, she said her son was the one that all the girls would call when they wanted to talk something over, [laughs] you know?
00:26:55,387 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:26:55,987 [Erin McNeill]
Because he was there on the phone.
00:26:57,947 [John Lanza]
What was interesting about the podcast conversation was that Tyler Cowen, he was taking the other side of the debate-
00:27:03,467 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:27:03,567 [John Lanza]
… and saying, um, that it’s tough to identify whether it’s a net negative or a net positive for, um, different kids.
00:27:11,687 [Erin McNeill]
Right.
00:27:11,707 [John Lanza]
But Cowen’s argument was largely about high school kids, and Haidt’s argument is largely about middle school kids.
00:27:19,567 [Erin McNeill]
Hm.
00:27:19,587 [John Lanza]
The, the norms are focused on high school. That might change, and they’re better able to deal with it. But kids in middle school, and he, we’re, we’re looking at this data of, of at the same time that social media began to explode, we’re seeing very poor mental outcomes, right? Uh, particularly for girls is what a lot of the conversation is. And so, so you’re right, uh, there’s ability for people to connect with people they could never connect with before, and that’s incredible. Um, so you have to weigh the good and the bad, but the focus really is kind of more on those middle school kids. And in our case, this was our 11-year-old in middle school, and you really want them to be having interactions that are very much, um, in person. One of the things they talk about, ’cause you had two sons, and not to, not to, uh, uh, to stereotype, but they were talking about how boys, when they’re playing video games, it used to be that video games, at least is what Haidt’s talking about, and they’re like, you play together. But now because… It, they’re actually much better if you don’t play together, because you’re all, you’re connected with your friends, um, and, but you’re not in person with your friends, right? It’s not really a social activity. It’s, there’s so many factors here for parents to kind of wade through, and I just… Maybe you could talk a little bit about that kind of video game, um, side of things. Maybe you have some more experience, ’cause our kids just weren’t that into video games. Erin, give us, uh, a little bit of a, uh, some thoughts on how to deal with the video game world perhaps.
00:28:50,587 [Erin McNeill]
Well, I think that was true. Uh, the boys would be all in the basement playing video games together, which was not really a bad thing.
00:29:01,047 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:29:01,407 [Erin McNeill]
Um, you know, as long as they also went outdoors once in a while, and that’s another issue-
00:29:05,967 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:29:05,987 [Erin McNeill]
… where, you know, collective action, you can’t send your kids out to play if all the other neighborhood kids are in their basement playing video games. Um-
00:29:13,147 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:29:13,267 [Erin McNeill]
… you know, at least to play with the other kids. You know, obviously the pandemic had a big effect, where they couldn’t be together, and it was sort of, um… You know, saved a lot of them their, their social interaction because they were able to socialize, uh, in this sort of virtual world that almost feels real. Um, but now post-pandemic, I think that we’ve really gotten into some habits and ruts where, yeah, everybody’s alone playing their video games, [laughs] um, which is probably not healthy if it’s s- spent, if they spent too much time doing that. Um-
00:29:51,527 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:29:51,567 [Erin McNeill]
… and also, we’re also learning about, you know, the social media on the video games can also introduce, uh, maybe people that are, uh, not, you know, not kids. They’re, they don’t have… They’re predators or whatever. So, um, I think a lot of parents aren’t really aware that there is, um, some, some risk as far as the social media on the video games. Um, I don’t know. What, what, what is your question about video games? [laughs]
00:30:19,987 [John Lanza]
Yeah, just, like, how do we-
00:30:21,867 [Erin McNeill]
How do you deal with-
00:30:22,507 [John Lanza]
… h- how do we, yeah, how do you sort through that? Because like you said-
00:30:25,827 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:30:25,847 [John Lanza]
… like, if you’re, if you’re, uh, if you’re video gamers are playing together, it’s, it is one th- I mean, that, that is, that’s just-
00:30:32,267 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:30:32,287 [John Lanza]
… that’s a social interaction. So it’s…… it’s, I know this is something that parents are dealing with. And, and I know in talking to parents that it just becomes very frustrating when they have-
00:30:43,123 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:30:43,244 [John Lanza]
… you know, either a son or daughter who is just like, that’s what they’re focused on. So how do we… ‘Cause that’s, it’s another type of media literacy-
00:30:52,643 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:30:52,804 [John Lanza]
… that they have to address because there are, you know, there’s, there’s product placement ads, there’s so much going on there. So, just ideas for parents. Yeah.
00:31:00,243 [Erin McNeill]
There’s a lot of stereotyping, sexualization, that was one of the things that really bothered me about video games. Um, yeah, I mean, my kids, I, I didn’t really want the vide- violent video games, but, um, they played them at somebody else’s house, you know?
00:31:13,144 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:31:13,363 [Erin McNeill]
And that’s when they got started.
00:31:14,763 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:31:14,784 [Erin McNeill]
Um,
00:31:16,484 [Erin McNeill]
you know, video games are also a way to teach media literacy. There’s a lot of media literacy video games. Um, there’s a lot of, uh, ways to teach media literacy through other kinds of games. Um, so, you know, there’s, there’s, and also, it’s a, it’s a future job category, so it’s not, you know, certainly not all bad. But just like-
00:31:39,764 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:31:39,784 [Erin McNeill]
… everything else, maybe needs to be in moderation. And, you know, I would really be helpful if the schools were teaching media literacy skills around video games. You know, every parent doesn’t know
00:31:51,763 [Erin McNeill]
what’s going on in every game, but professional educators can be trained and have, um, ways to teach these skills so that they’re decoding what messages they’re getting. You know, is it shaping their beliefs and attitudes? Um, and, and then, you know, the digital wellness. How l- much time am I spending on this? What sh- what’s an appropriate time? You know, how, have I spent, uh, if I spend less time, do I feel better? So having-
00:32:19,004 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:32:19,024 [Erin McNeill]
… those kind of questions be part of our, our education, um, both from parents as well as teachers would be a huge help.
00:32:27,543 [John Lanza]
So when you were ra- I mean, uh, uh, granted, they, they grew up a little bit behind what the, the, the complete immersiveness of this-
00:32:35,663 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:32:35,823 [John Lanza]
… digital culture, but they still had a fair amount of, uh, immersed, um, digital culture. How much, like, and parents thinking, you know, ’cause again, it’s like, you gotta pick and choose your battles, what you’re gonna spend your time on, I realize. [laughs] Just ’cause I, I very often, I’m talking about here, you know, having the money conversation. So how many… So people will think, “Yeah, of course, Aaron, your boys know everything about media, media litera- med-
00:32:59,883 [Erin McNeill]
[laughs]
00:33:00,063 [John Lanza]
… media literacy, ’cause they were talking about it all the time.” What were those conversations like? How often did you have them? Did you have them at the dinner table? Did you have, I mean, you already mentioned that you did it at the store. Um, just points for, so, to help parents feel less overwhelmed and how they can just set a strategy to do this, to have these conversations.
00:33:22,463 [Erin McNeill]
I think there’s a, a lot of other parents that, um, can really offer the tips for parents. Um, you know, my main tip is really, uh, being there and talking to kids, your kids, about what they’re experiencing and being, being aware of what they’re experiencing. You know, what, what, what kind of video games are you watching? How does that make you feel? I, you know, when mine, um, my older son was small, he used to watch, uh, Woody Woodpecker. And that was, that-
00:33:53,363 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:33:53,663 [Erin McNeill]
… you know, that little bird was always jumping around really, really hyper.
00:33:56,803 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:33:57,203 [Erin McNeill]
And after, after he watched it, he would be jumping around, you know, all over the couch and everything. And so I said to him, “You know, why are you doing that? Is it, are you aff- are you being affected by the television show you just watched?” And I think that he, he really seemed to get a lot of insight from that and say, “Wow, you know, I, I really, [laughs] I really am.” And he was, you know, five years old. Uh, “That, that’s why I’m jumping around, because I just watched this TV show.” So, um, you know, obviously as they get older, it, it gets a lot tougher. But, um, you know, again, I was watching, uh, the World Cup with my son when he was 15, and, uh, you know, we’re both watching the same screen. And then he tells me, uh, that so-and-so is the Budweiser Man of the Match.
00:34:47,443 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:34:48,843 [Erin McNeill]
Right? You know, he’s 15, we’re watching the same TV show, we’re watching it together. And I said, “You know, how do you know?” [laughs] And he says, “You know, it’s on his phone.” So he’s being marketed to, he’s being, you know, somehow he saw that, it was in front of his face and not mine. So that’s such another, another great opportunity. And, and it’s great to just be there because the kids, you know, they’ll share with you. And he knows my interest in advertising, so he shared that. And so it was such a great insight that, you know, he’s, he can, he can recognize that he’s specifically being targeted by something that I’m not being targeted by.
00:35:26,043 [John Lanza]
Sure.
00:35:26,863 [Erin McNeill]
Um, so being there, you know, listening and, and talking about everything that you’re seeing and experiencing is probably the, the number one tip that I can, um, offer.
00:35:41,503 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Well, it’s very much like here, uh, we focus very much on the money conversation.
00:35:46,703 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm.
00:35:46,723 [John Lanza]
Having that open money conversation and the back and forth. And, you know, my kids are now 21 and 18, and I, you know, we’ll go back and forth about these things and, and including media literacy. It’s something that-
00:35:57,303 [Erin McNeill]
Good
00:35:57,323 [John Lanza]
… we incorporated. My, I, I wrote a third, my, my third kid’s book is really about my, the characters, the Money Mammals.
00:36:05,803 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm.
00:36:06,363 [John Lanza]
Joe the Monkey, who’s the main character, is not into collecting this, we literally call it, stuff. And all of his friends are deranged and totally bought into this stuff, and Joe-
00:36:17,843 [Erin McNeill]
Sure
00:36:17,903 [John Lanza]
… can’t understand it. So it’s something we can all understand, where you understand how fads work. Everybody’s, you know, there are fads that we get caught up in and then there are fads that other people get caught up in. And when you’re the one, uh, objectively looking from the outside thinking-… what is going on. It’s, uh, you know, obviously this is a, it’s a kids’ book, so it resolves very well [laughs]. It doesn’t, doesn’t always resolve where everybody has the, is, becomes enlightened, but it’s, it is important to have these, you know, have these conversations and we can, you know, we can start them early. And one of the activities that we have is that idea of what is it in these ads that is targeting me, right? You know, it’s like, “Buy one, get one free,” sounds like a great thing, but if you weren’t gonna get the thing, it’s not necessarily, uh, it’s not necessarily great. Now free, things that are free aren’t really free-
00:37:10,408 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:37:10,547 [John Lanza]
… necessarily, because, you know, if nothing else, now you just have something else that’s [laughs] in your house, um, or, you know, you’ve eaten something you wouldn’t have eaten or whatever it might be. So, understanding that free isn’t free, another concept.
00:37:24,047 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah.
00:37:24,228 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I like this idea of having this kind of ongoing conversation, uh, makes a lot of sense.
00:37:29,747 [Erin McNeill]
You know, kids, kids love it. They, they, well, they, they hate to find out they’ve been manipulated, but it really gets them excited, you know, to, to teach others and to spread the word, um, they find out. Well, right now, um, you know, we know about the tobacco advertising to kids and marketing to kids and how that all turned out, so now there’s, um, vaping. And the marketing of vapes is following that tobacco playbook. You know, it’s, um, using flavors and marketing it as something that’s kind of rebellious, but also you fit in. And when kids find out that, you know, they’re being manipulated and used this way, uh, it’s very, very enlightening for them and I think they can, you know, use those skills in, in other places as well in their lives.
00:38:21,787 [John Lanza]
Yeah. And the same thing is happening on social media. When, you know, people react to the idea that we should be age-gating social media and kids should not be-
00:38:30,427 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:38:30,447 [John Lanza]
First of all, you, it should be, there should be actual age-gating that works, uh, so that kids who are under 13 can’t get on, um, and then we can, you know, we could debate whether it should go up to 16. But the issue is, I’ve, I’ve heard these, you know, the PR, uh, spin from these companies is, “Well, there’s no, there’s no link between,” you know, “there’s no causal link.” And I’m not claiming there is necessarily a causal link and this is, it’s different than, um, what’s happening in the cigarette industry, but there is certainly a cor- very strong correlational link with the growth in social media and the, and the issues that are happening with, um, mental health, uh, outcomes-
00:39:11,907 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:39:11,987 [John Lanza]
… in kids. Now, very complicated, right? There always, it always is establishing a causal link. Um, but, uh, the point being that the arguments feel very much like the same arguments, just like you were saying, the vaping arguments seem very much like the way the-
00:39:26,787 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:39:26,967 [John Lanza]
… cigarette companies kind of went about just trying to kind of throw shade on what was when, on reality.
00:39:34,447 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah, and also putting it all on the parents, it’s the parents’ responsibility is another, you know-
00:39:39,547 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:39:40,047 [Erin McNeill]
… thing that, that has been done. But-
00:39:42,227 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:39:42,307 [Erin McNeill]
… with, you know, with media literacy, it doesn’t hurt. Like, maybe we have an established [laughs], causal or, or whatever, or direct links, but, um, yeah, there’s definitely, you know that you, you scroll on social media, you might feel bad about yourself afterward, right? So, the-
00:39:59,167 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:39:59,287 [Erin McNeill]
… media literacy education does not hurt. It’s not a risk to do it.
00:40:04,207 [John Lanza]
[laughs] No doubt about that. Uh, it’s-
00:40:07,327 [Erin McNeill]
Right
00:40:07,527 [John Lanza]
… it is something that we all need to do and introduce to our kids on some level as soon as possible.
00:40:13,627 [Erin McNeill]
Exactly.
00:40:14,167 [John Lanza]
Um, is, so, uh, I want to ask you this question because we are on The Art of Allowance podcast, because money-
00:40:20,107 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:40:20,127 [John Lanza]
… and advertising, and, and advertising and media literacy are very much linked, so, um, I’m curious, as a media expert, how did you talk with your kids about money? Did you give your two boys an allowance? Did you not? What was your, like, h- and how did you start that? How did your program grow? Uh, did you have a program? I’d love to know a little bit about how that all worked out.
00:40:43,367 [Erin McNeill]
Um, so as far as allowance, uh, we had a very inconsistent program and policy. Uh, they did get allowance, uh, it was a regular, there weren’t many rules, and, um,
00:40:59,867 [Erin McNeill]
they’re big savers. So, um, you know, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know whether that’s the right way to go, but, uh, I think it was more maybe modeling
00:41:12,547 [Erin McNeill]
that, uh, you know, the way they saw their parents using money and-
00:41:17,167 [John Lanza]
That’s, yeah
00:41:17,347 [Erin McNeill]
… yeah.
00:41:19,187 [John Lanza]
Uh, yeah, so that’s, that would be my first question, which it would be… So they are big savers, so how did you… So it’s just mo- Did you do anything aside from, uh, ’cause well, to model saving, you do have to make the invisible visible, which is such a big part of these conversations. So, wha- were there any kind of, uh, tips or any kind of strategies that you used to get that across? In other words, d- did you show them what you were, how you were saving? How do, how do you think they became the savers that they are today?
00:41:55,367 [Erin McNeill]
John, I don’t know [laughs].
00:41:57,707 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:42:01,267 [Erin McNeill]
I don’t know. Uh, I think, you know, I think that…
00:42:05,907 [Erin McNeill]
I was really very concerned, you know, along with the s- the media and the advertising, um, also commercialization and materialism is, is a big part of it. Uh, you know, there’s an organization called Fair Play. They’re very, that’s how I got started really, was, was started with, um-
00:42:23,327 [John Lanza]
We’ve had, uh, Josh Golin on the podcast.
00:42:25,907 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah.
00:42:25,947 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:42:25,947 [Erin McNeill]
So, you know, uh, I just, I’ve just always loved what they do. Um, and so the, you know, the commercialization of everything, so all of the toys, all of the shows that they watch are then cross-merchandised with the toys and so everything’s got the, you know, whatever character it is that’s on the TV. Um, and we just…… Never bought those things. It was always, you know-
00:42:49,307 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:42:49,407 [Erin McNeill]
… plain, you know, play with a box [laughs].
00:42:52,068 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:42:52,287 [Erin McNeill]
Play with things that don’t have some kind of like really clear, um, connection, ’cause that’s how kids become kind of trained in just the, the need and want of stuff. So-
00:43:03,068 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:43:03,187 [Erin McNeill]
… um, I think that was probably part of it. And, you know, I’m happy about that.
00:43:07,987 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:43:09,447 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah, I’m, I could share one of our stories. I remember my daughter, one of the first goals she saved for was a scooter. And we had this conversation about, you know, a branded character scooter versus, in this case it was a Razor scooter, and just a quality issue. Like, you’d be, you’d actually been paying the same amount.
00:43:29,567 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah.
00:43:29,787 [John Lanza]
But then we didn’t talk about licensing fees, but we basically said, you know, “It’s you’re not getting as high a quality scooter with that branded scooter,” right? I mean, they’re both branded.
00:43:41,207 [Erin McNeill]
Right.
00:43:41,328 [John Lanza]
Uh, but one is branded in a way to say that this brand represents a quality of a scooter, whereas the other one represents the quality of a brand, right? She, you know, she decided to get that, the, uh, the scooter that was just a better quality scooter. I mean, you could just tell, ’cause it was made out of metal versus plastic. And, uh, and that, that scooter lasted for a long time. And tho- those are good conversations to have, to have them just at least think that there are differences, um, amongst these different brands that they are considering when they’re making their purchases.
00:44:12,887 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah. Uh, I think also allowing them to make those decisions, right, uh, have them save their money and then decide how to spend it. And another story about, um, my son Patrick when he was small, he had saved up some money and he bought this little toy that he saw advertised. It was like a little fuzzy worm on a string, you know? And on the ad, it could do all kinds of things. It was like alive, right?
00:44:33,547 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:44:34,008 [Erin McNeill]
[laughs] And he was, he was incensed. This thing did not do what he saw on the TV. And I think for that, that was another moment of insight. You know, like, “I saved my money, I bought this thing, and it, you know, I’ve been tricked.” And I think that those kind of lessons, they, they, they add up and kids are just more aware of, of, you know, the, the link between advertising and their money and what they really want.
00:44:57,747 [John Lanza]
Yeah, there’s nothing better than our own experiences-
00:45:01,288 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:45:01,448 [John Lanza]
… teaching us the lessons. So I’m curious, Erin, as someone who has really… I mean, you are immersed in media literacy. What have you learned in this area that you believe that very few people agree with you about?
00:45:18,987 [Erin McNeill]
So what I believe, and
00:45:22,127 [Erin McNeill]
a lot of my, you know, buddies in the media literacy world believe, that, uh,
00:45:27,627 [Erin McNeill]
media literacy is connected to everything, whatever your issue is. So here’s your issue, financial literacy, right? You can see the connection, media literacy. But you know, whatever the problem in the so- society is, whatever the issue is, there’s some media literacy connection. Uh, we’ve been making that case for a long time. I would say that, you know, we haven’t reached everybody with it, probably not even, um, you know, probably a small percentage. But, um, that’s, that’s what I believe, that’s why I’m doing this work.
00:45:56,107 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:45:57,787 [John Lanza]
That makes a lot of sense. I wanna read to you two quotes and just have you react to them, because, um, I’m sure you know obviously Marshall McLuhan, um, the media critic. And he said, “What may emerge as the most important insight of the 21st century is that we are not designed to live at the speed of light.” And I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.
00:46:26,067 [Erin McNeill]
Well, that makes me think of AI right now and how fast that’s changing before we can… You know, we’re so far behind as far as figuring out how media is affecting us and social media and the internet, and now we have AI on top of it, or, you know, added in, um, just amplifying everything and moving so fast that, uh, it makes me feel like sometimes I think, you know, the only solution is just go all the way back. We’re gonna use paper, we’re gonna be [laughs] in person-
00:46:53,387 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:46:53,907 [Erin McNeill]
… and, uh, you know, it’s, I, uh, sometimes I can’t see any other solution, because it’s starting to be where you just can’t believe anything you see.
00:47:02,487 [John Lanza]
It’s a very good point. Um, I, uh, I, I’m glad you brought up AI, because
00:47:08,387 [John Lanza]
I, I want to read, there’s one other quote I would like to read. And this just, this quote is from E.O. Wilson and he said, “We have Paleolithic brains, medieval laws, and God-like technology.” And Wilson said this before recent developments in AI. And so I wanted to bring that up because I wanted to ask you
00:47:28,247 [John Lanza]
where we’re going with AI. And I mean, and, and, you know, literally with, uh, this podcast could, will probably come out in two to four weeks from now and [laughs] the, the, we could have a leap that we’re not even prepared for. But, um, you know, I’ve been, I, I’m, I always vacillate between being a techno utopian and being… and I, I have b- of both minds. Like, I, I can’t believe I’ve been using the new ChatGPT voice and it’s incredible how powerful it is as a technology, but at the same time, it scares the living daylights out of me. So how do we incorporate the latest developments in AI into our [laughs] kind of media literacy family discussions?
00:48:10,327 [Erin McNeill]
I’ve been, I, you know, I, I have a pretty good imagination. I’ve been able to imagine some really terrible scenarios with AI. [laughs]
00:48:15,987 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:48:16,007 [Erin McNeill]
And actually I’ve seen some of them already happen. So that’s, uh, disturbing. But, you know, obviously there’s so many
00:48:24,287 [Erin McNeill]
positive things that we can do with, with-
00:48:26,987 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:48:27,127 [Erin McNeill]
… this technology that can really help people who have, um, you know, whatever, uh, issues or problems that, that the AI solves. So, you know, where are we going? I don’t know. Can you repeat the question?
00:48:40,647 [John Lanza]
[laughs].
00:48:41,367 [Erin McNeill]
[laughs].
00:48:41,647 [John Lanza]
The question is just like, how do we deal with teaching our kids media literacy now-
00:48:47,147 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:48:47,727 [John Lanza]
… in a world of…You know, we’ll just say, we’ll- we’ll go to the- the negative side of things with, uh, deep fakes, uh-
00:48:55,283 [Erin McNeill]
Mm-hmm
00:48:55,324 [John Lanza]
… being an obvious issue. Just- just information that is misrepresented, um, across all spectra.
00:49:04,384 [Erin McNeill]
So, you know, one thing I’ve been thinking about AI is, um,
00:49:08,604 [Erin McNeill]
this is a really new technology. And young people, they do pick up new technologies. That’s one of the things we’ve been saying. “Oh, they’re digital natives.” Well, you know, that’s great they can use the technology, but they don’t necessarily know the responsibility, or the ethics, or that sort of thing, the consequences. Um-
00:49:23,523 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:49:24,304 [Erin McNeill]
But that’s why I think it is so important to teach media literacy and including ho- AI. How do you use AI? What, you know… What does it mean when you’re using it? Um, what are the possible pitfalls? What are the advantages? Because, um,
00:49:41,284 [Erin McNeill]
young people can pick up these tools and then you add on the- the- the sort of, like, mature learning and guidelines, um, the ethics responsibility. And I think that when we have a- a- a, you know, a society that’s media literate because we’ve taught kids from K to 12 all of these important, um, skills, they are going to be able to help. You know, it’s not just how do you control it, you know, the kids are doing all kinds of terrible things, but it’s, they can help. They can find solutions. They’re, you know… People are creative, especially young people. Give them the tools, give them the learning, give them the guidance, um, they’re going to find solutions.
00:50:25,523 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I- I think that is, you know, based on history, that does make sense. Um, you know, I- I’ve told my kids, I’m like… Uh, not that they need me to tell them that, but I just said, you know, with regard to AI, you really need to take advantage of it because… You know, Kevin Kelly, who I’ve had on the podcast, too, and he is a kind of pro-topian, he’s talk- he’s written a lot about technology. He was a co-founder of Wired Magazine. But in his book, The Inevitable, he talked about… This is way, this is probably six, seven, maybe eight years ago. He was talking about thinking about AI as something you just kind of plug in to the wall to get your kind of AI. And it’s kind of turned into that, right? The idea that it’s like almost a… It’s- it’s a- a plugging in of your brain. In other words, if you don’t use AI to- to kind of go about your existence, you are hamstringing yourself against… Well, I shouldn’t say against. Um, when other people are using it, you’re in a situation where you are just… You’re not… You’re… It’s like, it’s almost like it could be the positive side, it’s just a brain upgrade, right? Uh, again, I’m oversimplifying it, but I do think the idea of thinking about it as a kind of, you know, this idea that you plug in to use it makes sense, because you would never deny… Like, if we denied ourselves electricity, we would be living in a
00:51:50,123 [John Lanza]
n- nowhere near the kind of world that we’re living in. Now, yes, okay, you can make the argument there [laughs], there- there might be-
00:51:55,223 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:51:55,383 [John Lanza]
… some positives there. But in general, um, electricity is a, it’s a big driver of kind of better outcomes for kind of most people globally. And I, you know, it’s- it’s possible that, uh, uh, you know, I don’t think electricity has the same potential downsides as AI. It’s not, we don’t have an e- e- existential down- downside. But it is… Your point being that, you know, you, we’re not putting the genie back in the bottle, one. And so, how do we deal with this on an ethical level? And it may be that, honestly, really, our kids are gonna be better off, be- are gonna be better stewards of the ethics than- than we might be.
00:52:33,323 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah.
00:52:33,383 [John Lanza]
I don’t know. Yeah.
00:52:35,283 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah. Um, hopefully. Uh, in-
00:52:37,923 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:52:37,943 [Erin McNeill]
… in a way, I also feel like we’re all… You know, we’re creating problems for them to solve, is also another way to look at it.
00:52:43,423 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:52:44,063 [Erin McNeill]
[laughs]. So. There’s some other-
00:52:45,823 [John Lanza]
Yes
00:52:45,843 [Erin McNeill]
… issues. Yeah.
00:52:47,023 [John Lanza]
If you’re ready for it, Erin, I want to take you through the gauntlet that we call the fast and fun round questions. As you can tell by the name, it’s not-
00:52:53,923 [Erin McNeill]
Okay, [laughs].
00:52:54,883 [John Lanza]
… [laughs] too- too troublesome a gauntlet. But first question is, normally I ask what does the term money empowered mean to you, but I’m actually gonna ask you, what does the term media empowered or media literate mean to you, personally?
00:53:10,343 [Erin McNeill]
Um, it means being able to use the tools and not be used by them.
00:53:17,103 [John Lanza]
All right. What is the best investment of time or money you ever spent on your kids?
00:53:25,503 [Erin McNeill]
I sent them to a camp with no electricity [laughs].
00:53:29,443 [John Lanza]
[laughs].
00:53:31,723 [Erin McNeill]
Electricity is great, but it was so good. They had no phones, you know, no screens. Just a bunch of kids in the woods with fire.
00:53:40,683 [John Lanza]
Wow, that sounds-
00:53:41,483 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:53:41,583 [John Lanza]
… phenomenal. [laughs].
00:53:43,023 [Erin McNeill]
It was really good. I think it was really good for them.
00:53:45,243 [John Lanza]
Very nice. So, what advice to your kids do you most hope that they will heed?
00:53:52,583 [Erin McNeill]
Um, I hope that they will be aware of their use of especially the phone. Don’t just scroll. You know, just- just pay attention to what you’re doing. Be aware.
00:54:04,223 [John Lanza]
If you could transmit a message that everyone would see, sky-written, on a billboard, wherever, what would that message say, Erin?
00:54:12,503 [Erin McNeill]
So, it would have to do about, uh, have to do with- with how the shaping effects of media. So, I might say something like, “How is your, you know, how is your media, how is your entertainment media, uh, shaping your beliefs about yourself?”
00:54:27,243 [John Lanza]
Very nice. I- I wanted to comment on that before you had talked to your, um, son about that toy that he had bought, the little squiggly thing that, uh-
00:54:36,523 [Erin McNeill]
Yeah
00:54:36,643 [John Lanza]
… was not as advertised. I really like what you did, which is that you didn’t tell him any- you just asked him the question. Because, and didn’t- didn’t sound like you didn’t expect, you didn’t even wait for a response necessarily, because it was really for him to come up with his own response. And I think that’s a, that’s a very good, uh-… piece of advice that we can use with our kids. It’s just ask the question and let them answer that for themselves, right?
00:55:02,328 [Erin McNeill]
You might learn something. It might be [laughs] an answer you’re not expecting. [laughs]
00:55:06,488 [John Lanza]
[laughs] So true.
00:55:08,747 [John Lanza]
So, um, what’s the best, what’s the one kind of money, and it doesn’t have to be one, um, but one kind of book on media smarts, uh, podcast, uh, that you go back to or that you gift the most often?
00:55:23,648 [Erin McNeill]
So I have two answers for that, and I love Planet Money, um, I listen to it all the time, and it’s about the system, you know, the, the economic system, the financial s- you know, it’s, it’s, it’s like how does this all work. Um, and then there’s… So there’s a book I’d like to give all of the kids. Uh, I don’t think there’s enough books on media literacy for kids. There’s lots about how to teach it, you know, here’s something for your parents, here’s something for the parents, here’s just general adult stuff, but there’s a book called Made You Look by Shari Graydon. Um, it just really talks about how advertising works to kids and it works because I, I, you know, my son Patrick, he read it and he was able to decode an ad-
00:56:07,847 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:56:08,167 [Erin McNeill]
… uh, for me in a really, just really great, succinct way right after reading that. He was 11 years old. Um, anyway, I w- I would give that book to all the parents.
00:56:18,307 [John Lanza]
Thank you for that.
00:56:19,987 [John Lanza]
All right. Well, you made it through the gauntlet, Erin, and-
00:56:22,867 [Erin McNeill]
[laughs]
00:56:23,647 [John Lanza]
… um, I want to ask you as we close things out, uh, how can people find you and Media Literacy Now, uh, on social media [laughs] and/or the web?
00:56:33,667 [Erin McNeill]
Sure. Um, we’re here and there on social, @medialiteracynow, um, and website medialiteracynow.org. You can go there, you can subscribe to find out what’s happening, what we’re doing, how you can get involved. Uh, you can also click on the take action button and learn some, you know, i- ideas for how to take action.
00:56:54,468 [John Lanza]
And what is one action that we parents can all take to help you and media literacy right now?
00:57:02,627 [Erin McNeill]
I want every parent to talk to somebody about media literacy. Their kids’ parents, I mean, their kids’ teachers, other parents. Um, you know, ideally you’ll go to the school board meeting and ask what’s going on at the, in my, my schools.
00:57:19,328 [John Lanza]
Well, Erin, I really appreciate you taking the time. This has been great. I’ve been wanting to do something on media literacy for a while and, uh, you were the ideal person to do it, so I appreciate your time and thank you for sharing all your wisdom and knowledge.
00:57:33,987 [Erin McNeill]
Well, great. Thanks, John. Thanks for, uh, thanks for your interest and, uh, it’s really been fun.
00:57:38,447 [John Lanza]
[music]
00:57:44,867 [John Lanza]
Thank you for listening to The Art of Allowance podcast. If you want more material to help you raise money smart kids, subscribe to my email newsletter to get three useful ideas delivered to your inbox every Monday. There’s no cost and you’ll find out more about the Money Mammals to help get your preschool and school-aged kids excited about money smarts, and Adolescents, to help your tweens and teens build smart money habits. Just go to themoneymammals.com, click on that green button on the bottom right of the screen and become a subscriber today. I hope to see you there and of course, don’t forget to enjoy the journey.