AOA 065: How Can Parents Get on the Same Page Financially? – With Guest Megan McCoy

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“In finances, balance is the goal, not either extreme.
So there’s probably strengths to both of your perspectives.”

— Megan McCoy

How can parents with different money personalities raise money-smart kids?

My latest podcast guest, Megan McCoy, offers strategies for partners to address their differences and realign their intentions on a money-smart journey. We also dive into negative financial self-fulfilling prophecies, why financial opposites attract, avoiding financial fights, the power of delayed gratification and the problem with financial education in the classroom.

Megan holds a Ph.D. in Human Development and Family Science with an emphasis on Marriage and Family Therapy from The University of Georgia. She is currently an Assistant Professor at Kansas State University’s personal financial planning program, where she teaches courses at all levels focused on financial well-being, financial therapy and couple dynamics regarding financial therapy. What’s more, Megan is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, an Accredited Financial Counselor® and a Certified Financial Therapist-I™.

Megan’s research interests focus on financial therapy, financial well-being and financial communication. She has published over forty articles in top-tier mental health, family science, financial counseling and financial planning journals. Megan has also been featured as a financial well-being expert for The Today Show, The New York Times, NPR, BBC, The Wall Street Journal and many other media outlets.

Links (From the Show)

Show Notes (Find what’s most interesting to you!)

  • How free admission to a financial therapy conference led to Megan’s current research [2:51]
  • What influenced Megan’s interest in therapy [3:50]
  • Megan defines the term “financial well-being” [4:27]
  • What is a financial therapist? (Fun fact: Megan was the first Certified Financial Therapist-I™!) [4:59]
  • The dangers of negative financial self-fulfilling prophecies [6:57]
  • How to take baby steps toward positive financial behaviors [8:11]
  • How can parents begin to get on the same page when it comes to raising money-smart kids? [9:58]
  • Financial opposites attract. Why is that a big deal? Also, how can parents address their differences? [11:24]
  • Other areas in which opposites attract [13:27]
  • Financial therapy as an oil change [14:19]
  • How Megan suggests attempting to realign two partners with different money personalities [15:59]
  • How to initiate a conversation with your partner to try to get on the same page (Hint: Megan’s favorite life hack calls for using a pen and paper.) [18:07]
  • Avoiding what Megan calls “pre-fights” can help you avoid actual fights. Assume the best intentions when you can. [21:22]
  • Megan shares a different (and interesting) allowance method for raising her own kids to be money-smart. [25:36]
  • Megan relates a funny story about misunderstanding her daughter’s question about money. [27:13]
  • A deep dive into Megan’s interest rate allowance method [28:35]
  • The power of delayed gratification can manifest quickly. Megan shares a fascinating study on this topic. [30:19]
  • Thoughts on cash-based allowance programs [31:09]
  • Megan’s family’s core values are reflected in her allowance program. [32:38]
  • Another approach to charitable giving [34:18]
  • The concept of nudges [37:16]
  • “Each system is going to have its strengths and weaknesses.” [38:16]
  • Megan and I discuss the problem with financial education in the classroom. [39:01]
  • Megan’s Golden Rule [46:15]
  • Being money-empowered as not being afraid [47:05]
  • The importance of reading [47:17]
  • How to address anxiety with your kids [47:44]
  • “Be kind to yourself.” [48:56]
  • Megan’s money-smart book recommendation [49:33]
  • Megan on the web [50:43]
  • Megan’s book plug [51:04]

Click here for the full transcript.

If you liked this episode …

Looking for more advice on how parents can align themselves financially? Author, CPA and occasional Art of Allowance Podcast co-host Robin Taub suggests a values-based exercise during her second episode. Stream this segment beginning at 43:29.

Intrigued by the relationship between an allowance program and family values? Financial psychologist Brad Klontz outlines how he and his wife are using their allowance system to help teach their family’s values, including the importance of saving, giving and, of course, spending. Be sure to tune in at 8:39 for all the details.

Interested in bridging the gap between financial education in school and at home? During her appearance on The Art of Allowance Podcast, educator and Pockets Change co-founder Andrea Ferrero discusses how she involves parents in financial learning. Listen in at 23:43 for her strategies.

Please Subscribe

If you like this podcast, then please give us a review and subscribe to the show. The Art of Allowance Podcast is available on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, Radio Public and now Amazon Music. Subscribing is free, and it will help me produce more enriching content for you to enjoy. Thanks!

You might also want to check out The Art of Allowance Project, our reimagined program to get your children excited about money smarts at any age. Until next time, I wish you and your family well as you journey forth.

Thanks for listening!

John

Full Transcript

This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 65, featuring host John Lanza and guest Megan McCoy.

00:00:00,080 [John Lanza]
Hello, and welcome to Episode 65 of The Art of Allowance Podcast. I’m your host, John Lanza.

00:00:09,300 [Megan McCoy]
We always like to say opposites attract, but frankly, that’s not what the research says. That in the big picture, religion, child-rearing, um, politics, we tend to marry someone very much like us-

00:00:21,680 [John Lanza]
Hmm

00:00:21,850 [Megan McCoy]
… except for when it comes to money. I think we are, we do have a habit of being attracted to our opposite when it comes to finances. Someone who is, um, less future-oriented looks at a partner who is more conservative around their spending and more focused on the future as someone like so responsible, so mature, so like protective. And those-

00:00:44,200 [John Lanza]
Hmm

00:00:44,240 [Megan McCoy]
… who are future-oriented, protective, and savers and things look at these fun partners who live for today and, uh, get attracted to that spontaneity. And so a lot of times with couples, what I try to say is that you guys married each other for the reason of your conflict or your difference. [instrumental music]

00:01:05,760 [John Lanza]
In this episode, I speak with Meagan McCoy. Meagan offers strategies for partners to address their differences and realign their intentions on the money-smart journey. This is a very common question that I run into when I teach my Art of Allowance Academy classes. We also dive into negative financial self-fulfilling prophecies, why financial opposites attract, avoiding financial fights, the power of delayed gratification, and the problem with financial education in the classroom. Meagan holds a PhD in human development and family science with an emphasis on marriage and family therapy from the University of Georgia. She is currently an assistant professor at Kansas State University’s Personal Financial Planning Program, where she teaches courses at all levels focused on financial well-being, financial therapy, and couple dynamics regarding financial therapy. What’s more, Meagan is a licensed marriage and family therapist, an accredited financial counselor, and a certified financial therapist. She has published over 40 articles in top-tier mental health, family science, financial counseling, and financial planning journals, and she has been featured as a financial well-being expert for The Today Show, The New York Times, NPR, BBC, The Wall Street Journal, and many other media outlets. I think you’re going to really enjoy my conversation with Meagan McCoy.

00:02:40,640 [John Lanza]
[instrumental music] Today, I am talking with Meagan McCoy. Welcome, Meagan.

00:02:45,480 [Megan McCoy]
Hi, thanks for having me.

00:02:47,860 [John Lanza]
Well, really excited to have you on here. And to get us started, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and some of the research that you’ve been doing?

00:02:56,420 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. So, um, as a little kid, I always knew I wanted to be a therapist. I was like the Charlie Brown character, like 25 cents for advice kind of person. So I knew I wanted to be a therapist. Started doing therapy back in 2008. Loved it, but went back for a PhD, and while there, um, the first-ever financial therapy conference came to town. Honestly, the only reason I went is because they gave us free admission, but I loved it. I learned so much from this experience of interacting with financial planners and understanding client psychology. And then I was lucky enough that our clinic started to let us work together. So I’d be working alongside financial planners with my clients in therapy. So since then, I haven’t looked back. I became an accredited financial counselor. I now work in a financial planning department, and I really teach money and relationship courses and financial well-being courses now and do research on similar topics.

00:03:48,860 [John Lanza]
Great. Uh, I have to ask you, so what was it at eight, at eight years old that piqued your interest in therapy?

00:03:56,100 [Megan McCoy]
A couple things. One, I moved a ton. And so as I moved, it was harder to make friends every year, and I, I got into studying what made people happy, what made people tick, in kind of like a selfish way, but it also probably is because I’m the oldest, I’m a little bit of a caretaker too. So it was a curiosity of people mixed with a desire to caretake.

00:04:17,200 [John Lanza]
Wow, interesting. Thank you for sharing. So Meagan, you have got … You’ve done a ton of research, and we’ve got a lot, a lot to cover here, so, uh, I want to get start. I think it’s good you mentioned the term financial well-being-

00:04:30,220 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm

00:04:30,440 [John Lanza]
… and you’re an expert in financial well-being. And, uh,

00:04:34,020 [John Lanza]
how do you define that term?

00:04:37,080 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah, I think it’s two. I think striving for goals that are aligned with value and the absence o- of fear, stress, or anxiety. So like kind of a peace that comes with, “I have a plan in place. I’m working towards the best I can be.” Um-

00:04:53,320 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:04:53,460 [Megan McCoy]
… and I can figure out anything else that comes between. [laughs]

00:04:57,020 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that makes sense. Um, now you’re a financial therapist, which is a fairly new concept. I’m, I’m … You know, we’re starting to see more, uh, financial therapists out there. Can you tell us exactly what a financial therapist does and maybe how it’s different? Well, I think, I think that’s enough of a question.

00:05:16,420 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. So I’m very proud of the fact that I was the very first certified financial therapist. But financial therapy was developed in 2008, and that timing, I think most of us recognize, was due to, um, the stress of the market downturns. So the wonderful faculty members at Kansas State University, John Grable, Sonya Luter, Kristy Archuleta got together with a ton of therapists as well and started to say, “Hey, all those financial planning clients are talking about their stress, their grief over losing their house,” things like that. “And all these therapist clients are experiencing st- um, all this financial focus in sessions. How can … What can we learn from each other?” So financial therapists can either be financial practitioners or mental health prof- practitioners that really understand the intersection between emotional and financial well-being. And so I’ve done different levels of cross-training to get there.

00:06:11,171 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah.

00:06:11,342 [Megan McCoy]
Uh, like, the dream eventually of Financial Therapy Association is to create completely cross-trained individuals who may have a therapy license and a financial license, but most of us have one or the other and have done classes or additional certificates to kind of balance it.

00:06:26,352 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. There is, uh, a lot of kind of, uh, holistic discussion of, uh, financial wellbeing that’s out there now. People-

00:06:35,272 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm

00:06:35,361 [John Lanza]
… understanding that it’s not the, you know, the money is less, uh, less rational, much more emotional, and that, that overlap makes a ton of sense.

00:06:46,152 [Megan McCoy]
Absolutely.

00:06:46,832 [John Lanza]
And to that extent, like, what we believe about [laughs] ourselves, you know, speaking of psychology, really matters. And I know you’ve done some research on this. Can you talk a little bit about the power of self-fulfilling financial-

00:07:01,232 [Megan McCoy]
Uh-

00:07:01,241 [John Lanza]
… prophecies?

00:07:02,551 [Megan McCoy]
Yes. I’ll use myself as an example. There’s this interesting thing that happens where some of us may self-label ourselves as competent around money, or as I did, incompetent about money. And when you feel like that label, if I feel incompetent, I avoid a podcast or, or, or, or YouTube clips or shows focused on it, or classes or books, which makes me less literate, which then leads to behaviors that then I can point to and say, “See? I’m not good at money.”

00:07:32,301 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:07:32,332 [Megan McCoy]
And so it becomes a cycle of avoidance, prevents literacy, which causes negative behaviors, which then leads to reaffirming our original label on ourselves. Luckily, the same thing happens for those who say, “I’m great at money.” You know, we seek out if we’re interested, we listen to podcasts, we watch YouTube videos, we read Investopedia if we feel like we’re good, and so we get better. And that falls into this label to ourself too.

00:07:57,871 [John Lanza]
So how do we get from that? Because I think most of us, um, have felt or feel consistently that we have major financial baggage. We are terrible with money.

00:08:10,602 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:08:10,652 [John Lanza]
So what, what are some of the steps to go from not feeling good about money to being more empowered with money?

00:08:18,012 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, yes. I think there’s, uh, I believe in, um, there’s many ways to skin the cat. I wish there was a prettier saying of saying that. So, like-

00:08:24,282 [John Lanza]
Yeah. [laughs]

00:08:24,461 [Megan McCoy]
… it might be [laughs] different for any of you.

00:08:26,332 [John Lanza]
[laughs]

00:08:26,751 [Megan McCoy]
Some of us… Yeah, some of us should go back and explore those early childhood memories and be like, “When was the first time that I put this label of wasteful or, or, um, not good at money?” Or whatever the label is that’s holding you back. Um, and where’d that come from? When I, I talk badly about myself, what memories pop up?

00:08:46,942 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:08:47,152 [Megan McCoy]
And where did that story come from? Because we are-

00:08:50,271 [John Lanza]
Hmm

00:08:50,281 [Megan McCoy]
… as humans, terrible storytellers. Like, if I asked you how your day was, there has been thousands of minutes in a day, right? But we describe three, and over time, that thin description of our days just backfires on us sometimes. So some may go, do well going backwards. Some of us just need some positive experiences today. So I love the work on, like, um, Nudge or Tiny Habits or Atomic Habits. It’s like, okay, let’s just have one day a week where you just do one small action anchored to something you’re already doing that is positive about your finances and then reward yourself afterwards. That way, we can start making that ratio of all these bad experiences around money, these moments of insecurity or insufficiency around money be balanced out with some positively rewarded present-day experiences that make it-

00:09:40,152 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:09:40,531 [Megan McCoy]
… something you don’t have to avoid as un- as much.

00:09:44,052 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So the little steps that help you develop the identity that I’m, you know, not a money disaster, that I’m actually, you know, pretty good with money. I can kind of get by, right?

00:09:54,252 [Megan McCoy]
Absolutely. Yeah.

00:09:54,652 [John Lanza]
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

00:09:56,712 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:09:57,172 [John Lanza]
So, one of the most common questions that I get, and this is why I was really excited-

00:10:02,212 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:10:02,322 [John Lanza]
… to talk to you originally. Although then I looked at all your research, I said, “Well, there’s a lot we could talk about.” [laughs]

00:10:08,182 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:10:08,472 [John Lanza]
But one of the key things, this happens all the time, so we’re gonna spend a little time with this. And that is when I’m talking to… So I’ll hold a class about kind of raising money smart kids, and these can be kids at any age. These can be-

00:10:20,422 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:10:20,422 [John Lanza]
… parents who have kids who are, you know, three and four and they’re starting to think about how to set up an allowance. These can be parents of kids who are 11 and 12 and it’s just gone awry. Or one of them has taken on most of the, uh, burden and they feel like the other one is not. And the question is always, what if you are not on the same page with my partner? So it usually takes the form of-

00:10:44,041 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm

00:10:44,041 [John Lanza]
… yes, I want my kid to get money smart, to become money empowered, but my partner is a complete disaster and I don’t know how to deal with that. This is a very complicated question. So-

00:10:57,932 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:10:58,002 [John Lanza]
… I would like you to start where you think the beginning might be, and let’s kind of peel back the layers of the onion, see if we can-

00:11:05,632 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs] Yeah

00:11:05,642 [John Lanza]
… kind of come up with-

00:11:06,412 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:11:06,512 [John Lanza]
… some help for people. [laughs]

00:11:08,412 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah, I hope so. I hope I can get enough stuff that at least it’s a step towards the right direction for couples.

00:11:13,852 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.

00:11:14,692 [Megan McCoy]
Because I don’t think our job is to harmonize, meaning being exactly like our partner, but rather empathizing and seeing their strengths. So, uh, and let me back up a step and say we always like to say opposites attract, but frankly, that’s not what the research says. That in the-

00:11:29,271 [John Lanza]
Hmm

00:11:29,352 [Megan McCoy]
… big picture, religion, child rearing, um, politics, we tend to marry someone very much like us.

00:11:36,271 [John Lanza]
Hmm.

00:11:36,462 [Megan McCoy]
Except for when it comes to money. I think we are… We do have a habit of being attracted to our opposite when it comes to finances. Someone who is m- um, less future-oriented looks at a partner who is more conservative around their spending and more focused on the future as someone like so responsible, so mature, so like protective. And those-

00:11:58,791 [John Lanza]
Hmm

00:11:58,862 [Megan McCoy]
… who are future-oriented and protective and savers and things look at these fun partners who live for today and, get attracted to that spontaneity. And so a lot of times with couples, what I try to say is that you guys married each other for the reason of your conflict or your difference.

00:12:16,120 [John Lanza]
Babe, yeah.

00:12:16,170 [Megan McCoy]
And then there’s this interesting phenomenon that happens with couples where we kind of polarize each other on things we hyperfocus on small differences. So let’s just use spenders and savers. That’s not really the right terms, but to use that. If I am a saver and I marry a spender, and I see them spending, what does that make me want to do? Save more, right?

00:12:39,120 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:12:39,209 [Megan McCoy]
And they’re looking at me as I’m saving more. I’m putting more pressure on them. And they say, “Hey, she’s got it covered. She’s saving for us. I can get away with spending a little bit more.”

00:12:48,319 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.

00:12:48,449 [Megan McCoy]
And so what we see is that couples start a little bit different, and then push each other apart. And so I think there’s two things. One, recognizing that you probably were attracted to those differences. That in w- most things in finances, balance is the goal, not either extreme. So there’s probably strengths to both of your perspectives.

00:13:08,170 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:13:08,189 [Megan McCoy]
And then number three, you may have started not as different as you look today. How do we get back to that middle ground?

00:13:16,540 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting. It- it- it does account … So- so this is different. This opposites attract, um, are there any other areas where this is true? ‘Cause you said in general, even though there is the cliché out there that opposites attract, that’s not true, but you say it is true for money and you explain why.

00:13:36,900 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:13:36,930 [John Lanza]
I get that. But are there any other areas where this happens, kind of broad areas for couples?

00:13:42,819 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. You know, I think i- in the extremes, the differences might happen. Like a functioner, like a over-functioner tends to be attracted to an under-functioner. Because most of us who over-function, kind of like the power, the control, the decision-making ability-

00:13:58,300 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:13:58,430 [Megan McCoy]
… that comes with over-functioning.

00:14:00,250 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:14:00,280 [Megan McCoy]
So I think sometimes we see that over-under-functioning cycle happen too.

00:14:04,480 [John Lanza]
Okay. Um, so aside from the obvious, which is go to therapy, [laughs] um, uh, which is obviously something we should do if we’re having, uh-

00:14:16,359 [Megan McCoy]
If we saw therapy as like a oil change instead of the engine blowing up. Like if we went to therapy when we first had tension, then these like nasty experiences that, uh, that cause a dance between us wouldn’t have existed. So go get a oil change if you feel a little conflict around money. [laughs]

00:14:32,480 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that makes sense because it’s … What’s interesting is that you’re saying you start having that difference, but then the gulf widens because one person’s behavior becomes more extreme or the potential is that one person’s behavior becomes more extreme and the other person’s behavior-

00:14:47,660 [Megan McCoy]
Right

00:14:48,260 [John Lanza]
… becomes more ex- becomes more extreme. And that would definitely … Oh, that- that … You can see how that would happen with kids because now want … The kids are, you know, someone … One of the kids is gonna want certain behaviors and the … A- and- and the worry of the parent who’s kind of pa- say the saving parent, is that they’re seeing the modeling from the spending parent, and now there becomes this major conflict. What was just a conflict amongst two people is now a conflict amongst two people that’s affecting the future of this one child. And, um, but it still seems like even if we … That- that … It sounds like that makes sense, but people are not gonna go get, you know, therapy. Um, like what would be … If- if someone were here. So say- say I said to you, um, I haven’t been … I have plenty of, uh, uh, issues that, uh … And if … We were talking beforehand about, uh, money mistakes. I made plenty of them.

00:15:47,780 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:15:47,939 [John Lanza]
One of the mistakes I did not make is I happened… My wife and I happen to be very simpatico when it comes to money.

00:15:53,329 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:15:53,380 [John Lanza]
So we’re very fortunate.

00:15:54,980 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:15:55,380 [John Lanza]
Very fortunate. Um, but if … Say I came to you and I said, you know, “I’m- I’m trying to save. My- my, uh, my wife or my partner is not interested in doing that.” What … How do I- how do I bring this up with her? Like if I know that they’re not gonna go to therapy and what would you say to that person?

00:16:17,380 [Megan McCoy]
Right. Well, there’s a couple things that comes to mind. First, I think oftentimes when there’s a … Somebody’s saving for goals and someone’s not, maybe they’re-

00:16:25,910 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:16:25,910 [Megan McCoy]
… don’t have the same goals in mind.

00:16:27,859 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:16:28,040 [Megan McCoy]
And so I firmly believe, and humanistic psychology says every behavior that someone does, no matter how dumb or bad it looks, serves a purpose. And if you don’t understand the purpose, you cannot find the substitute healthier behavior that will serve the purpose, if that makes sense.

00:16:45,859 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that does.

00:16:46,369 [Megan McCoy]
So perhaps they’re spending because they don’t care to like, um, travel Europe after retirement, right? They don’t care about getting to retire early. They like their job. So- so often we assume that these financial goals that … of saving is just true for everyone, when it’s not. And so, uh, one of my favorite date nights is the lottery ticket date night, where you just buy a dollar lottery ticket and you talk about like what would be different about your life if- if you won-

00:17:12,679 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:17:12,920 [Megan McCoy]
… all this money. Who would you spend more time with? What would you be doing? Where would you go? What do you want to do more of? What do you want to do less of? And that can kind of be an avenue to helping a partner who does not have a savings goal create their own savings goal. And I promise once they have something they’re working on, then they can do that cro- like that trade-off experience better. Like I don’t need to buy this coffee-

00:17:35,600 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:17:35,929 [Megan McCoy]
… because I want that car, or I don’t need to buy this coffee-

00:17:38,590 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:17:38,590 [Megan McCoy]
… because I want to retire early or whatever it is important to them.

00:17:42,500 [John Lanza]
That makes sense. And I- I like the- that- the idea of- of offering up, um, s- uh, this idea of a lottery ticket date or something like that. But I can also hear parents listening to this saying, “Yeah, okay, we’re gonna go do that.” We’ll have five minutes of a discussion or 10 minutes of a discussion that’ll go well, and then we’ll step back into the mire and we’re kind of caught up and- and- and kind of arguing with each other again. So for the person who really wants to initiate the discussion, what are some steps that that person can take to make sure that the discussion is as productive as possible?

00:18:18,070 [Megan McCoy]
Hmm.

00:18:18,212 [John Lanza]
So without… I mean, I know having gone to therapy that, that the beauty of it is that you facilitate. You know, a therapist facilitates a conversation, right?

00:18:27,772 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:18:28,272 [John Lanza]
Whether it’s a conversation, you know, with, that you’re having in your own head-

00:18:31,292 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. [laughs]

00:18:31,642 [John Lanza]
… or a conversation you’re having with others that, that… So if you don’t have that facilitator, you’re not-

00:18:37,112 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:18:37,142 [John Lanza]
… a professional, what are some kind of concrete steps you can take, um, as the person who’s trying to initiate this, to make the conversation as productive as possible?

00:18:47,832 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah, this is kind of like my favorite la- life hack. So when we, uh, are writing things down, it’s harder to get emotional aroused. So getting out a piece of paper to write on, and both you guys focused on writing things down-

00:19:02,052 [John Lanza]
Hmm. Yeah

00:19:02,382 [Megan McCoy]
… will keep the conversation more task-focused and less emotionally driven, so you can be more… When we get flooded with emotions, we don’t think and we don’t hear well. So-

00:19:12,672 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:19:12,772 [Megan McCoy]
… getting a piece of paper and say, “Let’s write down.” The second thing is, you have to agree on the wording of the problem. You cannot say the situation, um, is that you don’t save enough, right? Because that’s only… That partner has to fix the change.

00:19:28,852 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.

00:19:29,042 [Megan McCoy]
And really, at the end of the day, the only person can change is ourselves, right?

00:19:32,172 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:19:32,192 [Megan McCoy]
It has to be a shared defined problem. And that way, both people will feel accountability to change behaviors. No longer is that the better money person trying to fix the broken partner. It is now-

00:19:45,562 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:19:45,562 [Megan McCoy]
… that you guys are working together to have a clearer budget that meets both your needs. Or you guys are working together to cut down spending so that you can reach this specific goal, right?

00:19:56,472 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:19:56,482 [Megan McCoy]
And so, there can be an accountability for both. I also think we tend, as humans, to have a very small toolbox. Meaning we, we disguise one solution as multiple solutions, right?

00:20:10,342 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.

00:20:10,362 [Megan McCoy]
And then we’re like, “Oh, we tried so many solutions,” but we’re just hammering the nail.

00:20:13,942 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:20:13,992 [Megan McCoy]
So for instance, my daughter was having trouble getting up to school. I grounded her, I took TV away, I took iPad away. Like, all these things, and I was like, “I tried a hundred solutions.” No, I tried one solution, punishment in disguise. [laughs]

00:20:26,992 [John Lanza]
Punishment. Right, right.

00:20:28,472 [Megan McCoy]
So, how do we… Yeah. So, how do you… [laughs] How do you brainstorm actually all these different solutions together?

00:20:35,352 [John Lanza]
Yeah, well, that, that… This is the problem. ‘Cause you’re, you’re exactly right. We do… I, I do the same thing. I mean, we all do. It’s like you, you do… You have the nail, and you just pull out your hammer, and you just start smacking the nail. But-

00:20:46,692 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. [laughs]

00:20:47,162 [John Lanza]
… the thing is like… So, so you mentioned a lottery ticket. Do you have any other… ‘Cause I, I do think what… Do you have any other, either places that are good resources that people can go for ideas? Um-

00:20:58,572 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, yes

00:20:58,812 [John Lanza]
… or do you have any other particular ideas? Because this, this is really important. ‘Cause it’s easy for us to… Like, intellectually, I know exactly what you’re saying. But I also know that if I go into the conversation, I’m not necessarily gonna arm myself properly. I don’t know how to arm myself properly.

00:21:16,082 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:21:16,112 [John Lanza]
I’m still gonna bring the hammer.

00:21:17,832 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:21:17,961 [John Lanza]
So, how do I find something other than a hammer? Maybe a wrench.

00:21:20,872 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. Well, I think honestly, a lot of conflict comes from our pre-fights, [laughs] the fights that we do in our own heads-

00:21:28,732 [John Lanza]
[laughs]

00:21:28,782 [Megan McCoy]
… that, or, or the fights that come before. Because like, there’s so many times I’ve been in session with a couple, and they would say something innocuous. Like, we watched Friends last night, and the other partner would be like, boom, like explosion, because that was code, or that-

00:21:42,322 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:21:42,672 [Megan McCoy]
… was something that drove like a parallel in their head to something else, you know?

00:21:46,842 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:21:46,852 [Megan McCoy]
And so, if you really can slow down and say, “Let me give my partner the benefit of the doubt,” and just, like, take everything for the grain of salt, then you’ll be able to respond better, which will make the conversation go differently. Like, my friend, Megan Lurtz, who’s brilliant, she says whenever she gets an email that’s nasty from someone, she closes it, she walks away for a while, and then she comes back and pretends to read it as if that person’s smiling.

00:22:11,452 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:11,952 [Megan McCoy]
Like, I don’t care what it actually means, I’m gonna pretend that this is the nicest way they could say something.

00:22:17,832 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:22:17,932 [Megan McCoy]
And what that allows her to do is respond in a non-emotionally driven way, so she sounds calmer in her response, which usually alleviates the situation.

00:22:29,172 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:22:29,202 [Megan McCoy]
I think… I think that coming in saying, “I’m gonna be grounded, and know, like, at the end of the day, they might be wasteful, they might be making mistakes, they might not care about this as much as I do, but we’re safe together and we’ll figure it out eventually,” that will help you better.

00:22:43,312 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that’s… uh, that’s the, uh… I call that kind of the Lincoln rule. I think Abraham Lincoln… I don’t think this is apocryphal, I think he actually did this. But when he would get frustrated with someone like, I think one of his generals, General McClellan, had bungled his way into a, you know, disastrous battle, lost a whole bunch of men. Lincoln wrote his artic- wrote, wrote this letter to him about how awful… The, the mistakes he made, he should, you know… Maybe he shouldn’t be a general. Just, just scathing.

00:23:11,162 [Megan McCoy]
Right.

00:23:11,162 [John Lanza]
And then just folded it up, put it away, he got it out of his system.

00:23:14,282 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:23:14,592 [John Lanza]
Never sent it to him, right? Um, and that, that doesn’t mean that, uh, he didn’t have, you know, a conversation with him about it, but he got it out of his system.

00:23:22,232 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:23:22,292 [John Lanza]
So, that, that, that makes a lot of sense. It’s similar to what your friend was doing.

00:23:25,692 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. Like, rage on one thing, and then once you’ve done getting it out, then focus on, “Let me give them the benefit of the doubt now. Let me just pretend that they have all the best intention.” Because honestly, there’s not many people who do not have the best intention.

00:23:41,752 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:23:41,782 [Megan McCoy]
You know what I mean?

00:23:42,452 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:23:43,132 [Megan McCoy]
How it’s delivered, how it’s received is different than their intention.

00:23:46,992 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that’s a very good point. It’s like if we could think about what is the most charitable way that I could think about how that, that… Whatever someone said to me, what’s the most charitable interpretation of that? Uh, that might be a good thing for us to do, uh, across the board. [laughs]

00:24:00,632 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, that’s great. Yeah. I, like, love behavioral finance and, like, think that the idea of all the, um, shortcuts our brain takes are phenomenal. Like, the cognitive biases, right?

00:24:13,012 [John Lanza]
Yep.

00:24:13,022 [Megan McCoy]
And there’s one called actor/observer that I bother everyone about. But actor/observer says when you are the actor, your behavior, right? You explain your behaviors always about the context. “I was hungry.”

00:24:22,552 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:24:22,642 [Megan McCoy]
“I was tired. I was rushing.” When you look at someone else’s behavior, you always end up applying it to their personality.

00:24:29,484 [John Lanza]
Mm, yes, yes.

00:24:30,543 [Megan McCoy]
They’re really cool. Yes. And if we’re able to say maybe he just needs the Snicker bars. What is the context? Let me be a curious detective of the context before I apply it to their personality. Life would be better.

00:24:41,244 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that’s a good point, ’cause I- I- I just read this in, and I forget what book it was, but the idea that we look at our own issues charitably, and we look at other people’s issues without that kind of charitable-

00:24:53,164 [Megan McCoy]
Mm

00:24:53,174 [John Lanza]
… um, lens. All right, that- that was, I think that was really helpful. We, I mean, there’s a lot there, um, and if you have any other resources kind of web-wise that you wanna share afterwards-

00:25:03,524 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, yes

00:25:03,613 [John Lanza]
… you can make those available-

00:25:05,063 [Megan McCoy]
So there’s some-

00:25:05,694 [John Lanza]
… um, in the show notes

00:25:06,944 [Megan McCoy]
… oh, yeah. I’ll send a bunch of videos-

00:25:08,113 [John Lanza]
Yep

00:25:08,113 [Megan McCoy]
… that are fun to watch. [laughs]

00:25:09,504 [John Lanza]
Oh, good, good. That would- that would be tremendous.

00:25:12,283 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:25:12,293 [John Lanza]
‘Cause like I said, this really, it is the number one question that comes up.

00:25:16,194 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:25:16,264 [John Lanza]
Uh, oddly enough, when you’re talking about [laughs] raising money smart to our kids, that this is the- the- the- the top repeated question. So, um, the information you’re providing here is just hugely helpful, Megan. I really appreciate it.

00:25:30,323 [John Lanza]
So-

00:25:30,823 [Megan McCoy]
Thanks

00:25:30,833 [John Lanza]
… so, uh, so we’ve covered, um, the- that conflict. Um, so I wanna just talk a little bit about kind of raising money smart kids, because, you know, you are someone, you are a financial therapist. You are also a mother, so you have a family.

00:25:44,293 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs] yes.

00:25:44,343 [John Lanza]
And, um,

00:25:45,964 [John Lanza]
I- I would love to, ’cause we, this is The Art of Allowance podcast, so we always talk about the structure.

00:25:50,754 [Megan McCoy]
No.

00:25:50,764 [John Lanza]
And you can talk about it very granularly, but I would love-

00:25:53,664 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:25:53,833 [John Lanza]
… to know, um, what you’re doing with your kids, when you started with them, why you’re doing it the way you’re doing it. Um, share maybe one success or one failure that you’ve had. Um, there we are. Go. [laughs]

00:26:08,244 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. I love the one success, one failure idea. So, uh, one success is that we do a small allowance every week, but we also talk about interest rates and we have-

00:26:19,303 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:26:19,414 [Megan McCoy]
… um, different costs of withdrawals for s- uh, purchases on themselves, for themselves, versus purchases for others. So, she has to calculate, um, the interest she accrues on her allowance every week, and her and my husband sit together and do the math problem together. And then she decides-

00:26:36,073 [John Lanza]
Hm

00:26:36,073 [Megan McCoy]
… if she’s gonna take any of the money out and for what reason. So, last Christmas, she wanted to give a lot to charitable donations. The interest rate on that is non-zero, and we match. And then if she-

00:26:47,484 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:26:47,643 [Megan McCoy]
… does something for a family member or a loved one, there’s, um, there’s- the interest rate gets cut, and then if she does it for herself, there’s a very high interest rate on pulling her money out early.

00:26:59,343 [John Lanza]
Yes.

00:26:59,363 [Megan McCoy]
And so, I really like that activity. Um, I also think charitable giving or spending on others, not even just charities, but like spending on loved ones or other people makes us happy. So, it’s a big thing. I want her value. Um-

00:27:13,083 [John Lanza]
Yep

00:27:13,424 [Megan McCoy]
… my biggest failure though, is so funny. It just happened the other day. When she, just turned 10, but when she was, um, about nine, we were driving the car. And I spend all day telling people, “Talk to your kids about money. Talk to your kids about money. Be open, transparent, and let them learn their values.” But she asked me how much money I had.

00:27:32,464 [Megan McCoy]
And all the money, all the blood rushed from my foot. And I was just like, “What? How do I answer how much money do I have? What’s that number mean to a nine-year-old? What is that number?” You know, like, all these questions.

00:27:44,164 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:27:44,312 [Megan McCoy]
And so I had this long-winded mental accounting story, was like, “These buckets are for, you know, savings, for your safety, for you, for all these things.” And so I go on for like a half an hour just like monologuing. And she stops. And I’m like, “I- I don’t feel like you’re listening.” She goes, “I just wanna know if I can have Pokemon cards.” [laughs]

00:28:05,303 [John Lanza]
[laughs] That’s so great.

00:28:08,724 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs] I was like, “I was not reflecting on your developmental level.”

00:28:14,872 [John Lanza]
Right.

00:28:14,872 [Megan McCoy]
“I was like introducing all my fears about what you thought this number would symbolize, rather than asking you a little bit more of what you wanna know.” So… [laughs]

00:28:25,014 [John Lanza]
So- so she was asking, literally, “How much money do you have in your pocket right now?”

00:28:30,063 [Megan McCoy]
Yes. [laughs] Yes.

00:28:31,244 [John Lanza]
That is so wonderful.

00:28:33,904 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:28:34,384 [John Lanza]
Uh, okay, I have to go back though to the, uh, to the interest rate, because-

00:28:38,164 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:28:38,643 [John Lanza]
Um, so you said, can you tell, do you, well, do you have an- a fixed interest rate? And- and is, the interest rate is what she gets from money that’s in… Does- does she get that weekly from her save jar money? Is that what that’s for?

00:28:51,484 [Megan McCoy]
She gets, weekly, for doing the chores that are expected of her completely, and she get to-

00:28:57,583 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:28:57,744 [Megan McCoy]
If we have to remind her, there’s a penalty.

00:29:00,033 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:29:00,083 [Megan McCoy]
If she wants to do extra chores, um, to make money, we’re open to it. There’s like a lot of negotiations. We secretly want her to be a lawyer, so there’s a lot of-

00:29:09,563 [John Lanza]
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah

00:29:10,254 [Megan McCoy]
… negotiation going on in our house. [laughs]

00:29:11,224 [John Lanza]
Yeah. We are, we- I totally agree on the neg- You want them to be negotiating with them. That’s great. Yes, with you.

00:29:17,204 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah, I want them to be assertive and, anyway, so-

00:29:19,184 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:29:19,444 [Megan McCoy]
… yeah, so, that- she gets that every time. And then on Sunday, they sit with a little notebook, because sometimes the piggy bank might have money borrowed or moved around. [laughs] And so it’s all-

00:29:29,533 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:29:29,533 [Megan McCoy]
… based in a book, so not cash.

00:29:31,803 [John Lanza]
Mm.

00:29:31,813 [Megan McCoy]
Which is, I think more based on what her experiences will be as an adult. If we had cash on us more often, we probably would-

00:29:39,704 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:29:39,754 [Megan McCoy]
… be more focused on it. But it’s hard for us to give $3 every week. Um…

00:29:43,843 [John Lanza]
Okay, so you’re using the book so that when you go to the store and she asks you, you say, “Okay, well, let- let’s look at what you actually have.” And do you have the three buckets?

00:29:52,514 [Megan McCoy]
Oh.

00:29:52,524 [John Lanza]
Do you have like a spend bucket, a save bucket, and a share bucket? Like the…

00:29:55,823 [Megan McCoy]
No, the whole bucket’s hers, but when she pulls out, um, when she’s- whatever she saves is what’s getting an extra additional 5% every week. So, if she just-

00:30:05,093 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:30:05,093 [Megan McCoy]
… leaves all her money and she’ll make 5% on it every week, if she pulls-

00:30:09,083 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:30:09,114 [Megan McCoy]
… it out, there’s- you don’t get the 5% on it, but you also get these penalties-

00:30:12,244 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:30:12,254 [Megan McCoy]
… depending on what. And we never allow her to decide in the store. She has to tell us in advance so we can put it in the book. Uh, ’cause I really strongly believe in delayed gratification.

00:30:22,343 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:22,353 [Megan McCoy]
So, um, there’s a famous study that they let kids go to Kids “R” Us, and they said half the moms buy their two favorite things in the store today. Buckets and go home with it.

00:30:33,072 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:30:33,091 [Megan McCoy]
And then tell the other half of the moms, “I want you to say, ‘Pick out two presents. Tomorrow, I will come back and buy one of them and surprise you with it.'”

00:30:41,902 [John Lanza]
Okay.

00:30:41,902 [Megan McCoy]
And then they asked the kids who got two presents versus one present 24 hours later, who was happier. And it was night and day. The kids who had to wait a day where there was an element of surprise, where there was anticipation, do better. So there’s no like, “Oh, I want that candy bar. Take it out of my allowance.” It’s, “You better tell me [laughs] for tomorrow.” [laughs]

00:31:02,412 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah. Um, so the one thing though, isn’t, doesn’t research say that… I’m curious about not having cash for the allowance in the-

00:31:12,192 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, yeah.

00:31:12,512 [John Lanza]
The young, ’cause doesn’t it, isn’t there research that says, you know, that it’s harder to part with cash, right?

00:31:18,871 [Megan McCoy]
It is. Yeah.

00:31:19,591 [John Lanza]
Um, yeah. So-

00:31:21,812 [Megan McCoy]
But, yeah.

00:31:22,141 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead.

00:31:23,032 [Megan McCoy]
I was gonna say ours is simply a manifestation of laziness, because we don’t want to go to the store. [laughs] I think s-

00:31:29,131 [John Lanza]
Got it

00:31:29,381 [Megan McCoy]
… she is old enough and, and is numerically at the point where she understands that numbers. I think my younger daughter who’s only six, I don’t think she gets the book as much. Um, so-

00:31:43,162 [John Lanza]
Got it

00:31:43,162 [Megan McCoy]
… for her, she needs to see that building money amount.

00:31:48,052 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:31:48,111 [Megan McCoy]
I think it would be really hard for us to be able to maintain the interest rates in the cash every week. You know what I mean? Sometimes it’s like pennies-

00:31:56,662 [John Lanza]
Sure

00:31:56,682 [Megan McCoy]
… and things like that.

00:31:57,992 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:31:58,032 [Megan McCoy]
You have to be very intentional about preparing those things.

00:32:02,351 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:32:02,512 [Megan McCoy]
Um…

00:32:02,952 [John Lanza]
So, I’m, I’m, I, I, I’m trying to understand this. This is the first time I’ve heard this-

00:32:07,212 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:32:07,381 [John Lanza]
… particular system exactly. So y- in the book, there is, is there a save area or is there just you have X amount of dollars? You have $150, and if you don’t spend it, it accrues interest. And if you do spend it, it doesn’t accrue interest.

00:32:24,672 [Megan McCoy]
Yep.

00:32:24,972 [John Lanza]
Um, but why do you add an additional penalty if the penalty is that you’re just not gonna be accruing interest? I’m curious about that.

00:32:32,152 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, the penalty is for spending on self versus others.

00:32:36,712 [John Lanza]
Oh, interesting.

00:32:36,772 [Megan McCoy]
Um, so one of our core values is spending on others and charities. So, if she wants-

00:32:42,471 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:32:42,632 [Megan McCoy]
… to buy a present for her sister, there’s no interest. If she wants to give to a charity, there’s no interest in matching. And then if she wants to use for herself, there’s a small penalty for taking the money out, and so-

00:32:53,312 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay

00:32:53,541 [Megan McCoy]
… we just wanted to differentiate that. But I have to admit-

00:32:56,292 [John Lanza]
Interesting

00:32:56,312 [Megan McCoy]
… she’s an old soul, so

00:32:59,411 [Megan McCoy]
for her, it made a lot of sense and she was able to see these buckets or see these money things. Um, and, and she also is a saver. I think if she was-

00:33:09,272 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:33:09,282 [Megan McCoy]
… a spender, we probably would have to get into buckets, because I love the three buckets. I, I mean-

00:33:15,132 [John Lanza]
Sure

00:33:16,012 [Megan McCoy]
… honestly, me and my husband have bucketing for our accounts, like we have the-

00:33:19,942 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:33:20,072 [Megan McCoy]
… three goal buckets. So it would be good to introduce now. I think we were just trying more to get to that value of gratitude and the value of interest.

00:33:29,732 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That, I understand that, and I, um, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. I, I love the different systems and that’s, that’s the, that’s, that’s what we try to do on the show, is really talk about these systems. And I just want to fully understand the system, so I bet I, I now think I, I’ve got it. So, uh, thank you for sharing that.

00:33:48,712 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. And I think-

00:33:49,871 [John Lanza]
Um..

00:33:50,341 [Megan McCoy]
… this, it’s very meta to talk about like, I don’t think we, my husband and I talk a lot about money and about our, where our money beliefs came from and our family origins. But I don’t think we’ve ever said so explicitly that we are, we value the charitable giving, the delayed gratification, and the numeracy practice so very much-

00:34:12,491 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:34:12,532 [Megan McCoy]
… overtly like this.

00:34:13,380 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:34:13,391 [Megan McCoy]
So it was kind of good to see where it came from.

00:34:15,052 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Well, let me, I’m gonna throw something else out because the way that we did this with the charitable giving, and I don’t think we did a particularly good job with it, um, but I actually think that’s because our modeling wasn’t particularly great for this. But, um, but some people will do, you’ll have your share jar, your share bucket, whatever you want to do. And I, and, and I don’t think you should feel b- bad, like e- everyone, we all have this, uh, we should be doing it a certain way.

00:34:40,471 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs].

00:34:40,552 [John Lanza]
Um, I’ve talked to, like I talked to Chelsea Brennan and she actually has, she uses a card and it’s all digital money. Even for very young kids, right?

00:34:48,492 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:34:48,831 [John Lanza]
And then we tried to do it with cash, but we ran into the problem of you’re gonna forget cash sometimes at allowance time, right?

00:34:54,962 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:34:54,971 [John Lanza]
And then you’re beating yourself.

00:34:56,241 [Megan McCoy]
Uh-huh.

00:34:56,252 [John Lanza]
Whatever system is gonna cause you to beat yourself up the least, adopt that system.

00:35:01,112 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:35:02,011 [John Lanza]
So I wanna say that, but secondly, um, with regard to the save, what about the idea of if you had a save bucket, right? Rather than the penalizing, having a save bucket and then incentivizing the, um, ma- either matching the save or putting an interest on just the save. Like a, a higher interest on that. So in other words-

00:35:20,452 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah, like almost separating it-

00:35:21,721 [John Lanza]
… that’s-

00:35:21,721 [Megan McCoy]
… into like a checking and savings account for her.

00:35:24,812 [John Lanza]
Yeah. And making it so that, because then, and then when she puts that money into whatever bucket it is, like, uh, when, one of the restrictions we had, you can, that money can only go into, for, for charitable giving, right?

00:35:39,632 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:35:40,002 [John Lanza]
Um, and diff- different families will do it differently, but the, uh, the, uh, the advantage of that is then they’re thinking about it. And if they’re not thinking about it, you can always remind them, you know? Like, “You have accumulated a lot of money in your share jar.”

00:35:51,122 [Megan McCoy]
Hmm.

00:35:51,122 [John Lanza]
“There’s something going on at school.” Uh, it sounds like for your daughter, uh, I’ve run, we’ve run into kids where they, that’s all they’re thinking about, which is-

00:35:59,622 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:35:59,622 [John Lanza]
… is using money for other people. And I, I know, you know, research says that that’s actually a, a s- it’s a terrific way to kind of support your own happiness. So it’s, it’s great. But we’re actually, but you want to be able to prepare all different types of kids for those kids who don’t necessarily think about it.

00:36:16,652 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:36:16,662 [John Lanza]
So that’s, that’s just one thought because the, it’s, everything’s about incentives. So if you incentivize that jar, then it’s separated out. And the other thing is, I wonder how much the, if the penalty, like the, the penalty could be sending a message that-… might be counter to the main message. That was the only, that’s the only thing that-

00:36:38,372 [Megan McCoy]
What is interesting is that, um, she is, we were always surprised of how little of a spender she is.

00:36:45,212 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:36:45,272 [Megan McCoy]
So sometimes she’ll say, “I’m gonna get money out and we’ll go to the store,” and actually have trouble spending it.

00:36:52,202 [John Lanza]
Hmm.

00:36:52,212 [Megan McCoy]
And I don’t want her to under spend her whole life. So that’s a really good point. That was not the message I was trying to get across.

00:36:58,472 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:36:58,492 [Megan McCoy]
But my next one would be, uh, we’ll have to loosen it up a little bit. [laughs]

00:37:02,732 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Uh, we’re gonna continue this conversation because we, we found that same thing with our two kids too, is one of them really does not like to spend her money.

00:37:10,372 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:37:10,812 [John Lanza]
And the other one-

00:37:12,392 [Megan McCoy]
It’s the other one. [laughs]

00:37:12,722 [John Lanza]
Yeah, does like to spend the money. And so um, your concept of nudges really kind of resonated with me ’cause so, so much of the system that we’ve built was based on those, uh, nudges. And that makes a lot of sense. And for those who don’t know, like the nudge is this concept that came from, uh, Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler. It’s the idea that you do things like, you know, you opt people into a 401[k]. By opting people into a 401[k], the amount of people that participate is, it’s like 80% versus 20%.

00:37:44,972 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm. That’s absolutely right.

00:37:47,042 [John Lanza]
Um-

00:37:47,052 [Megan McCoy]
And so I opted for into a high yield saving account. [laughs]

00:37:50,672 [John Lanza]
Okay. [laughs]

00:37:53,452 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:37:53,832 [John Lanza]
Yeah, it’s, this is all, uh, I- I- I mean, uh, the- the key thing here is every, uh, ’cause every family’s different, all the systems are different.

00:38:00,662 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:38:00,672 [John Lanza]
That’s why I’m digging into it more to understand. I- I like, uh, ’cause you have so much, you- you- you have a breadth of knowledge that you’re putting into the system. So I want to know how that system is working, and I appreciate you, uh, you sharing with, uh, that with us.

00:38:15,582 [Megan McCoy]
I love it. And the idea that like, that each system is gonna have its strengths and weaknesses and figure out what’s gonna make you the happiest. Because there was all this research about how when we first made financial education mandatory, kids were actually doing worse.

00:38:30,872 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:38:30,892 [Megan McCoy]
Part of the reason is that those mandatory programs tend to be in lower SES families, like resources, and so they had less resources to work from.

00:38:38,242 [John Lanza]
Hmm.

00:38:38,272 [Megan McCoy]
They had less power and privilege. But then also another thing is a lot of the times we were forcing onto a teacher that may then themselves not have comfort around finances.

00:38:47,601 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:38:47,652 [Megan McCoy]
So when they’re teaching their kids, they’re making their anxiety go up as this teacher is so nervous about these financial concepts. So whatever messages you’re giving to your kid has to be ones that you’re comfortable with so they don’t feel your emotional arousal go up.

00:39:01,512 [John Lanza]
Okay, I’m gonna float this concept that I’ve been, uh, discussing and actually been working on an essay about it. And it’s, and- and

00:39:09,032 [John Lanza]
it’s purposefully kind of, um, uh, polarizing, but it’s good to talk to a professor about this.

00:39:17,092 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:39:17,132 [John Lanza]
Is that

00:39:19,252 [John Lanza]
I don’t think, I’m very skeptical, skeptical that financial education actually works in the classroom

00:39:27,612 [John Lanza]
if there’s not, and there usually is not, um, experience that’s directly associated with it, right? Because no matter what you learn in the- This is the true, I think this is true with pretty much anything that you do in the classroom.

00:39:40,692 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:39:40,752 [John Lanza]
It’s the reason why we send doctors to residency after they’ve learned what they’ve learned, right? It’s like-

00:39:45,882 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:39:45,882 [John Lanza]
… I don’t want someone operating on me that hasn’t actually practiced operating is why they call it a practice, I suppose. So- so I want your thoughts on that and maybe something that, you know, maybe I’m missing something there, but I- I feel like that’s why I think the parents matter so much in this process, because the parents are the ones like you and I have been talking about, that are gonna get money into their kids’ hands-

00:40:09,412 [Megan McCoy]
Right

00:40:09,422 [John Lanza]
… in the beginning from a young age, you know, until they can make their own money, um, uh, with their own jobs. Because the experiences are what’s gonna teach them. So give me your thoughts on that.

00:40:21,332 [Megan McCoy]
Right.

00:40:23,332 [Megan McCoy]
No, I absolutely agree. This could be a long winded answer, but it’ll go into one of the questions I think we talk about later, which is our favorite books. There’s this book called Nurture Shock that is about, it’s kind of Freakanomics of kids. It’s like everything you get-

00:40:35,072 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:40:35,122 [Megan McCoy]
… wrong about childre- Oh, you read it before?

00:40:37,772 [John Lanza]
It’s a great book. [laughs]

00:40:38,502 [Megan McCoy]
As you might… Oh, it’s so good. But I- I’m talking about the, the exercise they did with the students in kindergarten classes. They offered one group of kindergartners all this candy and rewards for- for standing as straight and still as possible. The other, the other kindergarten, the class, nothing for standing still, but said, “Whoever stands the longest will be crowned the Buckingham Guard of the day.”

00:41:01,642 [John Lanza]
[laughs]

00:41:01,642 [Megan McCoy]
And those, that is getting… And when they found the Buckingham Guard stood something like four times longer than the kid who got the candy.

00:41:08,782 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:41:08,812 [Megan McCoy]
Because kids always respond better to intrinsic motivation than extrinsic moti- motivation.

00:41:15,872 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:41:16,212 [Megan McCoy]
So in most education, bribing, giving rewards does not work. The only caveat is financial education. When it comes to financial education, what we find is if parents are involved on some level or kids are getting given actual accounts as part of the education, which is done in a couple of big programs now.

00:41:36,312 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:41:36,352 [Megan McCoy]
Here’s your checking account. As we learned, you can decide where it was.

00:41:39,542 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:41:39,612 [Megan McCoy]
Or here’s an investing program. I need you to invest as you see fit this semester. These hands-on experiences are 100% game changers.

00:41:49,562 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:41:49,592 [Megan McCoy]
And- and- and we so rarely give them a chance to practice with credit cards. I think it comes down to the, the famous, um, theorist, uh, Bandura-

00:41:58,102 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:41:58,102 [Megan McCoy]
… who said that how we feel doing something concretes or- or makes us more likely to do it again.

00:42:06,682 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:42:06,732 [Megan McCoy]
So if you feel positive and safe experiencing financial behaviors, you’re more likely to seek out to do those financial behaviors again. And so the more, I think financial education in schools is about making it less scary, less stressful, less complicated, simplifying, and really helping people say, “You can always find that information.”

00:42:28,452 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:42:29,202 [John Lanza]
Yeah. That’s, an, which gets at another point, which is this kind of, you know, um, just in case versus just in time learning.

00:42:36,472 [Megan McCoy]
Yes.

00:42:36,652 [John Lanza]
And the- the idea of just in case, like teaching kids about things like, you know, and- and again-The people are doing… The, the, the schools these are, is well intentioned. All these programs-

00:42:47,604 [Megan McCoy]
Oh

00:42:47,703 [John Lanza]
…are well intentioned. These, I mean, these are wonderfully thoughtful programs. But kids don’t really need to know about insurance, in- in my opinion. Like, they’re gonna-

00:42:56,894 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:42:56,894 [John Lanza]
…find out about it when they need. They’re gonna either gonna ask you. They’re gonna look at something on YouTube. They’re gonna go find some insurance companies. That, it’s- it’s just, they might need to know that the concept exists and a tiny bit about it.

00:43:08,394 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:43:08,424 [John Lanza]
But, right? So…

00:43:08,964 [Megan McCoy]
And more like transfer, retain, pay. You know, like that kind of model. You don’t need the language of more than that, because in insurance, it’s really about, like, what kind of risk are you willing to take on? What is your… How do you decide what will keep you up at night? And those kinds of things, so…

00:43:25,604 [John Lanza]
Yeah. And you can… And the thing about most of this stuff is really, it’s- it’s hard… I mean, you need to understand the concept and how it works.

00:43:32,073 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:43:32,104 [John Lanza]
But you really can’t learn about it without your own experience, uh, on- on the money side. You know, it’s kind of like the- the question that always comes up. People will ask, uh, “What’s your risk tolerance?” Which is just-

00:43:44,504 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:43:45,084 [John Lanza]
It’s- it’s such a pointless question. [laughs]

00:43:48,323 [Megan McCoy]
Right.

00:43:48,484 [John Lanza]
Because I mean, no- none of us know our risk- risk tolerance until the sky starts falling.

00:43:54,663 [Megan McCoy]
Right.

00:43:54,883 [John Lanza]
Right?

00:43:55,404 [Megan McCoy]
Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:43:58,604 [John Lanza]
Hm. So, I guess the question then comes down to is like

00:44:05,223 [John Lanza]
then what is the way that financial education should be dealt with on the school level? Do you have any thoughts on that?

00:44:15,004 [Megan McCoy]
Well, you know, my dream is that, uh, it gets more, um, it more… It gets more about values. It gets more about resources. Like, I teach a very, very mini four-week class that I spend way too much time talking about where to go for good information. Who to ask for for help.

00:44:34,343 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:44:34,383 [Megan McCoy]
I think that idea of like, “Hey, listen. You don’t have to be perfect. This is your safety net.”

00:44:39,504 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:44:39,544 [Megan McCoy]
So, you going to finance as being great would be perf- wonderful. I think, um, I think it- it does have to be a little bit of numeracy, like helping people-

00:44:49,363 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:44:49,743 [Megan McCoy]
…recognize compounding is- is essential.

00:44:53,323 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:44:53,403 [Megan McCoy]
Um,

00:44:54,783 [Megan McCoy]
so I- I mean, I don’t know. I think that good financial education, at the end of the day, makes it feel like you have the skills to face financial issues in the future.

00:45:05,723 [John Lanza]
Yeah, yeah. You’re right about the-

00:45:07,084 [Megan McCoy]
That might be all of it.

00:45:08,412 [John Lanza]
…the num- numeracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ‘Cause you do-

00:45:10,803 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:45:10,814 [John Lanza]
You do have to have that comfort with numbers. That kind of gets back to the beginning of our conversation, like identifying yourself as good with math or not good with math. And, uh-

00:45:20,484 [Megan McCoy]
Ah

00:45:21,004 [John Lanza]
…you know, you were talking about nurture shock. I was just looking at my notes for this book called Succeed, which is Carol Dweck and, um, I think it’s, uh… I forget the, uh, the- the other woman that wrote it with her. But Carol Dweck of Mindset. And they were talking about those self-fulfilling prophecies that we need to get rid of, you know. We should be able to go from, “Yeah, I’m not particularly good with money yet.” You know that concept from-

00:45:45,403 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:45:45,444 [John Lanza]
Right? And then you just-

00:45:47,343 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:45:47,354 [John Lanza]
You just realize that with a little bit of effort… Yeah, I’m not gonna be Albert Einstein, but I can be certainly good enough to be able to do everything you’re talking about here, right? Understand the rule of 72.

00:45:59,073 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:45:59,084 [John Lanza]
Understand how compounding interest works. How to calculate, you know, whatever my interest is going to be. Make smart decisions using some simple numer- uh, numeracy when I am making my financial plans. It’s all, it all makes sense.

00:46:13,403 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. Um, I wish that there was-

00:46:16,564 [John Lanza]
Okay

00:46:16,573 [Megan McCoy]
…a rule that you could not say something to yourself that you wouldn’t say to your best friend’s face. Like, you would never-

00:46:22,683 [John Lanza]
[laughs]

00:46:23,033 [Megan McCoy]
…say to your best friend, like-

00:46:23,884 [John Lanza]
Ah

00:46:24,124 [Megan McCoy]
…you’re not good with money. But we say that all the time to ourselves. Like, it would be a good rule to impose on everybody.

00:46:30,163 [John Lanza]
That’s a… That is such a great rule. And I have read some form of that so many times, and I- I still find myself stuck in, you know, stuck in my head.

00:46:39,564 [Megan McCoy]
Me too.

00:46:39,944 [John Lanza]
Um, yeah.

00:46:40,763 [Megan McCoy]
I’m so self-critical. [laughs]

00:46:42,734 [John Lanza]
Man, we’re so… We say stuff to ourselves. If we would just never be friends with the person that’s inside of our heads. [laughs]

00:46:51,104 [Megan McCoy]
I agree.

00:46:52,703 [John Lanza]
All right. So, I’m mindful of your time, so I want to make sure that we get to our fast and fun round questions. But only if you’re fully prepared for them, Megan.

00:47:01,203 [Megan McCoy]
I think I am. [laughs]

00:47:02,683 [John Lanza]
Okay. Well, here we go. The first one is, what does the term money empowered mean to you?

00:47:09,144 [Megan McCoy]
That you’re not afraid of it. That you have a plan in place and you sleep well at night with it. [laughs]

00:47:14,823 [John Lanza]
Love it, love it. All right. Uh, what is the best, uh, time or money that you have spent on your kids?

00:47:23,624 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, reading for sure. We spend way too much on reading. We spend way too much time on reading. But I love my little book nerds now, so that’s the best.

00:47:33,024 [John Lanza]
I love that. I don’t think it’s possible to spend too much on reading. [laughs]

00:47:39,863 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:47:41,484 [John Lanza]
That’s fantastic.

00:47:42,683 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:47:42,944 [John Lanza]
Okay. So, uh, what advice to your kids do you hope that they will listen to the most?

00:47:49,403 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. You know, I am a little bit of an anxious person. My kids are a little bit anxious because I’ll say, “Don’t be anxious,” but I model it too much.

00:47:56,854 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:47:56,863 [Megan McCoy]
And so there’s this thing I say all the time. What can you fix and make a plan for, and what do you have to let go of? And how are you going to cope with what you’re gonna let go of? And it-

00:48:07,183 [John Lanza]
Yeah.

00:48:07,214 [Megan McCoy]
It’s just three sentences. It’s really a kid’s version of the- the Alcohol, um, Anonymous prayer, you know. But write it down, those that you can fix, and then either breathe, walk, journal, pet a dog. Whatever you need to do for the things you have to let go of. And so I focus on those.

00:48:24,663 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Do you- do you… Off the top of your head, do you remember what that prayer is? I know- I know, like, the basics of it.

00:48:30,553 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. Let me see.

00:48:30,644 [John Lanza]
I’ll- I’ll put it in the show, at the end of this if you don’t.

00:48:33,524 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:48:34,144 [John Lanza]
Uh, because I- I think that’s a good reference.

00:48:36,703 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. The wisdom to know what I can change, the serenity… Nope, nope, I don’t have it. [laughs]

00:48:43,464 [John Lanza]
Yes.

00:48:43,493 [Megan McCoy]
It’s the wisdom to know the difference is the ending.

00:48:46,323 [John Lanza]
Y- yes. It sounds… Okay, good.

00:48:47,524 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:48:47,774 [John Lanza]
I- I’ll put that at the end and we’ll, uh… ‘Cause I think that’s-

00:48:50,683 [Megan McCoy]
Thanks

00:48:51,163 [John Lanza]
…I think that makes a lot of sense, um, to add that in…. and, um, okay. So if you could transmit a message, whether it’s kind of sky-written, it’s on a billboard or wherever that might be-

00:49:02,952 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm

00:49:03,031 [John Lanza]
… what would that message say?

00:49:06,202 [Megan McCoy]
You know, before, I was gonna say, “Talk to your loved ones about money.” But it’s so funny, after that last couple of things we talked about, it’s really like, “Be kind to yourself.” Like-

00:49:15,452 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.

00:49:16,452 [Megan McCoy]
What a, uh, what a good role model for others to be kind to yourself. Everything would get a little better if we were all kinder to ourselves, so… [laughs]

00:49:24,662 [John Lanza]
Here, here. I think that’s a good change. I would love to see that billboard. [laughs]

00:49:28,452 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah. [laughs]

00:49:30,092 [John Lanza]
I love that. That’s great.

00:49:32,402 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm.

00:49:32,412 [John Lanza]
Okay, so what’s the one parenting and/or money smarts book, you alluded to this earlier-

00:49:37,332 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:49:37,672 [John Lanza]
… um, or podcast or any media, but I, I have a feeling it’s gonna be book ’cause you are-

00:49:42,202 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:49:42,202 [John Lanza]
… book-focused, which is good-

00:49:43,852 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah

00:49:44,042 [John Lanza]
… uh, that you go back to or you gift the most often?

00:49:47,392 [Megan McCoy]
I still love Nurture Shock so much. I-

00:49:50,212 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:49:50,362 [Megan McCoy]
… listened to the audiobook. Then I got it at the library. Then I ended up buying it, and then I ended up losing a bunch of copies, which meant that I loaned it to students who never gave it back. [laughs] I, um, I just think it, it, it, it shows us some of the assumptions, the pressures we put on us, ourselves as parenting and how it’s-

00:50:07,511 [John Lanza]
Yeah

00:50:07,522 [Megan McCoy]
… not one size fit all, that only research that really matters at the end of day is that happy parents make happy kids. So, some of the research is useful. Some of it lets you forgive yourself. Some of them you could just say, “Yeah, all the other parts of that book is good, but this one’s not true.” [laughs]

00:50:24,582 [John Lanza]
[laughs] Yeah, that is, that’s Po Bronson and Ashley Merriman, right? Is that-

00:50:28,292 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah, a beautiful written book.

00:50:29,652 [John Lanza]
Get you that…

00:50:29,741 [Megan McCoy]
Yeah.

00:50:30,592 [John Lanza]
It really is. I, I, I, I would, I, um, haven’t read it, uh, I read it about a decade ago, but I was looking at my notes for it recently. I need to go back to them because you’re right. There are so many beautiful nuggets in that book, so thank you-

00:50:41,221 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm

00:50:41,221 [John Lanza]
… for sharing that. Um, and then finally, um, how could people find you on soc- to the extent that you want them to. How could people find you-

00:50:48,152 [Megan McCoy]
[laughs]

00:50:48,182 [John Lanza]
… on social media and the web?

00:50:50,571 [Megan McCoy]
Yes, I’m, I’m mostly on LinkedIn. I haven’t maintained my other social media that well. And then, my email’s meganmccoy@ksu.edu, and I’m all over Kansas State’s website for the Financial Planning Department.

00:51:02,852 [John Lanza]
Very good. And is there any action that people can take that would be helpful to you?

00:51:08,312 [Megan McCoy]
Uh, well, I guess all that stuff we talked about, being kind, talking to their family. If y- um, anybody’s a financial planner listening, I have a book called Financial Counseling Plan… Wait, Counseling Skills for Planners, um, by-

00:51:21,122 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm

00:51:21,122 [Megan McCoy]
… with some wonderful co-authors, so it’s a good one if you’re looking into some client psychology stuff. [laughs]

00:51:26,952 [John Lanza]
Well, Megan, this was a wonderful conversation. We, I, I, I feel like… I knew we would only scratch the surface because the level of detail that you’ve gone into in all these areas is so deep. But I really appreciate you sharing and, uh, helping me better understand, and to give some tools to our audience to deal with that kind of key question that we dealt with, which is, you know, when your partners are not on the s- when you’re not on the same page, how do you address it? And, uh-

00:51:53,881 [Megan McCoy]
Mm-hmm

00:51:53,881 [John Lanza]
… I think those were… You gave us some good strategies and some great ideas, and I appreciate your time. Thank you.

00:51:58,852 [Megan McCoy]
Oh, absolutely. It was so fun to talk. We’ll have to circle back again in the future. [laughs]

00:52:03,332 [John Lanza]
Sounds good. [instrumental music plays] Wow. There was so much in that conversation. I… Megan just has such a broad range of interests, and she brings such an enthusiasm, um, to what she does. And I actually wanted to share my enthusiasm for one of Megan’s suggestions, which is writing down issues to better address them. Um, we have a little bit of experience with this family-wise. We held a family meeting during COVID [laughs] to kind of soothe out some of the stress of being all holed up together, and it was pretty helpful for each of us to kind of write down our own frustrations and then share them with the group. Um, the whole purpose was to be constructive. The rule was that we had to listen to each other, and everyone was given a set amount of time to talk. There was no judgment allowed about the comments, but rather, each of us had to think about and explain what we might be able to do to make living together more enjoyable for all of us. For example, more than one member of our family mentioned that my humming around the house was a little bit distracting while they were working, and so I tried my best to curtail the humming. Um, I didn’t go cold turkey. I like to sing. I like to hum. It’s just something that I do, but now I was aware of it and could at least be, you know, a little less disruptive. And you compare this to kind of the normal way that this might be handled, which is, “Dad, stop humming!” And when someone attacks me like that, I naturally just get defensive, and in response, don’t really listen to what the person is saying. So, kudos to Megan for sharing that idea. And finally, I’d like to close with a secular version of the Alcoholics Anonymous Serenity Prayer that we discussed earlier, and neither [laughs] of us could remember exactly how it went.

00:53:56,531 [John Lanza]
Here goes.

00:53:58,591 [John Lanza]
“Please grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

00:54:11,511 [John Lanza]
[instrumental music plays] I really appreciate you taking your valuable time to listen to this episode. I hope you found it useful. You can find detailed show notes for this and all past episodes at themoneymammals.com. That’s T-H-E M-O-N-E-Y-M-A-M-M-A-L-S .com. Just click the Podcast and Blog link at the top of our homepage to discover our entire podcast archive. And if you like my work here, please, please leave a rating, or even better, a review on whichever service that you use to stream these podcast episodes. You are part of our Money Smart movement, and this podcast plays an important role in that movement. Your rating and review will help other people like us find this material. And lastly, if you’d like three ideas to help you raise money-smart kids delivered directly to your inbox each week, I think you’ll really love my weekly newsletter. Just click on the little purple circle with the chat icon at themoneymammals.com and select “Get Our Newsletter.” Of course, please consult with an investment or financial professional before engaging in any decisions that might affect your financial wellbeing. And until next time, don’t forget to enjoy the journey. [instrumental music plays]