“Talk about money. Have open conversations. But use them as a way to teach your kids about what you’re doing and as a way to guide them through their own hands-on experiences.”
— Ashley LeBaron-Black
Guest Ashley LeBaron-Black returns to The Art of Allowance Podcast to talk with host John Lanza about her research focus of family finance. Ashley first defines the terms “financial well-being” and “financial socialization.” She then highlights the importance of family modeling and open discussion on the money-smart journey. Ashley also emphasizes the essential nature of experiential learning and the shortcomings of classroom financial literacy. Both she and John then address the concept of money scripts, the ability of some kids (dubbed “financial phoenixes”) to overcome poor modeling and the need to go beyond rational-based instruction.
Ashley LeBaron-Black is an Assistant Professor of Family Life at Brigham Young University who received her PhD in Family Studies and Human Development from the University of Arizona. Her research focus is family finance, including couple finance and financial socialization. Ashley has published 33 peer-reviewed articles and is an Associate Editor for the Journal of Family and Economic Issues. She is also Chair of the Family Financial Well-Being Focus Group for the National Council on Family Relations.
Links (From the Show)
- Connecting with Ashley
- Money-Smart Mentions
- John’s short essay on financial socialization systems
- The New York Times article on practical word problems
- Joe Saul-Sehy’s podcast episode
- David Owen’s podcast episode
- John’s short essay on the Breakthrough Allowance
- Morgan Housel’s book, The Psychology of Money
- Megan McCoy’s podcast episode
- The University of Cambridge paper on money habits’ supposed early establishment
- Chuck Kalish’s podcast episode
Show Notes (Find what’s most interesting to you!)
- What Ashley has been up to since her last podcast appearance [3:44]
- Ashley defines the terms “financial well-being” and “financial socialization.” [5:12]
- How family modeling, open discussion and experiential learning impact financial outcomes [9:38]
- Ashley’s take on financial literacy in the classroom [15:35]
- Ashley’s interest in “financial phoenixes” [21:52]
- Bridging the gap between allowance and income [27:27]
- A deep dive on discussions [30:28]
- How parents can do a better job tackling “scary” financial topics [32:47]
- Money scripts and pedagogical creativity [38:30]
- Ashley’s research roadmap: financial socialization in real time, money scripts and couple finance [42:27]
- Building basic money habits [45:16]
- Ashley’s money memories: finite funds and future thinking [46:23]
- An updated definition of the term “money-empowered” [50:40]
- A money-smart pick-me-up [51:51]
- Ashley’s research roundup [53:52]
Click here for the full transcript.
If you liked this episode …
Looking for more information on the status of financial literacy in the classroom? The CEO of the National Financial Educators Council, Vince Shorb, discusses the importance of financial education, the need for financial literacy programs in schools and the challenges of scaling these programs during his podcast appearance. Start streaming at 20:59, and then check out the Council for Economic Education’s “Survey of the States” to discover the specific financial education standards in your area.
Still curious about alternate approaches to allowance? Credit union enthusiast and lifelong entrepreneur Kirk Drake suggests kick-starting your kids’ entrepreneurial journeys. He offers advice on encouraging entrepreneurship in your children and bringing your entrepreneurial eye to their endeavors. Kirk even highlights how to handle the pitfalls of early entrepreneurial success. Tune in to his episode at 14:46 for this insight.
Want to know more about the concept of “money scripts”? Let the researcher who coined the term, financial psychologist Brad Klontz, fill you in. Listen to his episode of The Art of Allowance Podcast at 23:24 as he discusses how these scripts impact financial behaviors and explains how they can be passed through many generations.
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Full Transcript
This transcript is from The Art of Allowance Podcast, Episode 71, featuring host John Lanza and guest Ashley LeBaron-Black.
00:00:00,399 [John Lanza]
Hello and welcome to Episode 71 of the Art of Allowance podcast. I’m your host, John Lanza. And I have a favor to ask you. If you enjoy this podcast, I could really use your help. Would you mind taking a minute just to leave me a rating or a review? It helps other people like you find the podcast, and it would really help me out. Thanks a lot. On with the show.
00:00:26,539 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Between, you know, asking research participants, like, “Did you have a financial literacy course in high school?” And we asked them, like, you know, “Did your parents, uh, you know, make an effort to teach you about money?” That the parent variable matters way more. In my opinion, why financial literacy courses are so important is because, you know, the state cannot control how… what kind of socialization people are getting at home. And so, I think you’re right that those education courses are going to be especially important for people who are not getting very much of this at home. But, um, but yeah. From what I’ve seen so far, they’re just not as important, as effective as it done really well at home, which I think for, you know, several reasons. Um, at home, that’s… we’re talking 18 years instead of a-
00:01:22,879 [John Lanza]
Huh
00:01:22,899 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… four-month course. Um, and at home, parents are able to give kids real-world experience. They’re able to actually go help them set up a savings account or give them an allowance or, you know, all these different ways of actually giving kids meaningful experience, instead of, you know, in a classroom, it’s probably primarily lecture based, which again, is not enough on its own.
00:01:46,099 [John Lanza]
[upbeat music]
00:01:52,579 [John Lanza]
In this episode, Dr. Ashley LeBaron-Black returns to the podcast to talk with me about her research focus of family finance. Ashley first defines the terms “financial wellbeing” and “financial socialization.” She then highlights the importance of family modeling and open discussion on the money-smart journey. She emphasizes the essential nature of experiential learning and the shortcomings of classroom financial literacy. And then, we discuss and address the concept of money scripts, the ability of some kids, dubbed “financial phoenixes,” to overcome poor modeling, and the need to go beyond rational-based instruction. Dr. Ashley LeBaron-Black is an assistant professor of Family Life at Brigham Young University. She received her PhD in Family Studies and Human Development from the University of Arizona. Her research focus is family finance, and it includes couples’ finance and financial socialization. Ashley has published 33 peer-reviewed articles and counting, and she is the associate editor for the Journal of Family & Economic Issues. She is also the chair of the Family Financial Wellbeing focus group for the National Council on Family Relations. Ashley knows families. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Ashley LeBaron-Black. [upbeat music]
00:03:28,579 [John Lanza]
Today, I am speaking with Ashley LeBaron-Black. Welcome back to the podcast, Ashley.
00:03:34,399 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Thank you, John. I am so happy to be here again with you.
00:03:37,759 [John Lanza]
And I appreciate your patience as we try to get past our technology issue hurdles, mostly on my end. So, it’s been a, I think, five years since our last conversation, and you’ve, uh, completed your schooling since then. You got married. So now, you’re officially Dr. Ashley LeBaron-Black and, uh, and of course, your research continues, and that’s what we’re gonna be talking a lot about today. But, um, please tell us kind of what you’ve been up to over the last several years.
00:04:04,699 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah. So, it is crazy it’s only been five years, and at the same time, it’s crazy that it’s already been five years. It’s been a big five years for me, [laughs] so yes. The last time we spoke, I was getting my PhD in Family Studies and Human Development at the University of Arizona. And, uh, since we last spoke, I finished that, um, and then also got married right towards the end of that. My husband’s name is Tom and he’s wonderful, so life is great. And, uh, I went straight from my PhD into a tenure track position in the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University, which was like my dream job, so I’m having a really great time. Uh, I… My time is split between research and teaching, which is perfect ’cause I love both. So, having a lot of fun.
00:04:58,099 [John Lanza]
Very nice. Very impressive. I mean, I was, uh, in prepping for this, I was looking at all the research that you’ve done and, uh, it’s pretty incredible, and I think it’s, it’s great for, uh, for the, for our audience here, because I think there’s just so much that we can cover. Um, but to set the stage for the discussion, um, I just wanna set up, uh, define a few terms that I know that are, that are going to come up. And I also wanna say that for anybody who’s listening, you are gonna wanna go back, I think, and listen to our initial conversation, which I think is Episode 15, um, where we talk about a lot of, uh, her research prior to or, uh, from 2019 and before. And this, everything we’re talking about here, we’ll build on it. I’m sure there’s gonna be some overlap, um, and we did define some of these terms there, but I think it’s good to do that again, um, just get some clarity here. So first, can you tell us, uh, how you would define kind of “financial wellbeing,” uh, and why it’s important? And then also, “financial socialization,” and why that matters?
00:06:00,499 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes. So, financial wellbeing is kind of the… primary outcome, the pinnacle of, of outcomes that we measure, uh, in this field. And so, it’s kind of a, a condition, a state of [laughs] being that takes into account both, uh, subjective well-being and objective well-being. So, on the objective financial well-being side, there are certain financial, you know, markers we can, we can use to more objectively kind of state how stable and, um, flourishing someone’s, uh, financial situation is. And then, subjective financial well-being, kind of going hand-in-hand with that is more the person’s perception of how happy they are with their financial situation. You know, do they… Are they really stressed financially or do they feel like they’re doing well? And a lot of it is about, um, that they feel like they’re moving towards their financial goals and have the knowledge and capabilities needed to meet those goals.
00:07:06,261 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
So, that’s kind of financial well-being. Um, definitely what we want for people. And then, one of the biggest predictors of financial well-being, especially that I pay attention to, is financial socialization. So, that is, um, what and how people learn about money. When we talk about socialization of any topic, um, it just means that, you know, like all humans in all aspects are socialized. They learn, um, and are taught habits and attitudes towards those things. And so, financial socialization is, is yeah, learning financial knowledge, gaining financial habits, uh, developing financial attitudes. And, uh, th- one of the primary, uh, agents of financial socialization is parents. So, that’s a big part of what I study, is parent financial socialization. What are parents teaching their kids about money? How are they teaching them those things? And then, we know that that affects kids in lots of ways, including their future financial well-being.
00:08:11,081 [John Lanza]
Going back to the subjective and objective, it’s kind of, uh, the idea that like your… The subjective is kind of your sense of your financial well-being, right? And then, the objective-
00:08:21,421 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes
00:08:21,441 [John Lanza]
… is, say, you looking at someone and saying, “Objectively, you know, they’ve got X amount saved. They seem to have, uh-“
00:08:29,081 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes.
00:08:29,361 [John Lanza]
“… not too much debt.” That, that’s, that’s the difference between those two? Do I have that right?
00:08:33,861 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Exactly. Yeah. And-
00:08:36,401 [John Lanza]
Okay
00:08:36,481 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… um, ideally when we’re studying financial well-being, we would use measures of both objective and subjective to try to get, like the, the best view of someone and their situation.
00:08:47,081 [John Lanza]
Got it. And then-
00:08:47,641 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:08:47,981 [John Lanza]
And financial socialization is basi- basically kind of what happens as you kind of grow… I mean, uh, looking at it from the-
00:08:54,381 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:08:54,401 [John Lanza]
… kid’s perspective. Kind of, what happens, how you perceive finance, how you learn about finance, through the process that you… Of, of just growing up in your home. Obviously, at school. All that is part of the financial socialization, right?
00:09:09,341 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes, exactly. So, yeah. In addition to parents, people think about socialization from peers or, uh, yeah, from, like financial education courses or media. But yeah, we, we definitely see that parents are, uh, kinda the primary source of financial learning during childhood and adolescence. And even it continues a little bit beyond that into emerging adulthood, but yeah.
00:09:33,681 [John Lanza]
Got it. Yeah, and it was actually… When we had our conversation, um, so you, you talked about that there’s the, obviously the link between socialization and then financial well-being. That’s well-established. But what you kind of brought to the field, kind of part of what was your aha moment was this idea that, you know, there’s a lotta talk about modeling and discussion and lecturing. Probably more so on the kind of lecturing, the teaching of financial literacy, and, and the modeling side of things. Uh, but not as much on, say, the experience side of things, right? And, um-
00:10:08,961 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes.
00:10:09,081 [John Lanza]
And that’s one of the things I, I actually wrote an essay kind of inspired by our conversation and by your research where I, I kind of envision that our kids’ financial planes or engines are driven by these three… Their, their three engines are modeling, the lecturing, and then the experience. And in our conversation, you made it very clear that the experience, uh, it’s probably the most important, um, aspect of those three concepts. And you’re really the one, you and your colleagues, who have dug in to give us some insight. So, can you kind of just tell us what your work has uncovered about the effectiveness of each of these three methods, and kind of what you’ve learned and why… The kind of why and how about those three mess- methods?
00:10:56,861 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah, for sure. So, so yes. Kind of the… I feel like a lot of what was driving, um, the c- our conversation five years ago was we had this qualitative data. We had done, like 153 interviews, and that’s where it came out that as we asked people, like, “How’d you learned about money from your parents?” They were talking about these hands-on experiences, this practice that they got that… And yeah, we realized like, “Oh, my gosh. Like, researchers are not thinking about this. They’re not measuring it.”
00:11:27,941 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:11:27,961 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
And so, my big, uh, my dissertation project in my PhD was to create scales, measures of modeling, discussion, and experiential learning so that we can actually do this quantitative testing to actually prove, you know, kinda these, these things that we heard anecdotally. And so, since then, I mean, this is still, um, you know, in its infancy that we’re actually differentiating between these different ways of learning. In the research previously, people have mostly just… Um, like we, you know, had established how important parent financial socialization is and linked it to all these different measures, but people really weren’t differentiating between different kinds of learning. So, so it’s, it’s definitely in its infancy, but in the last few years, we have, um, had some cool results where we’ve, yeah, kinda separated out the modeling, the discussion, and the experiential learning, to see what different financial outcomes those are uniquely predictive of. And, um, it was really cool to see that, um, all three of them kind of on their own were significantly associated with, you know, all kinds of good financial outcomes. But when we accounted for all of them at once, uh, the modeling was actually the primary driver of emerging adults. And when we say “emerging adults,” we’re thinking like 18 to 30 year olds. Uh, the modeling they had received growing up, so the example their parents had set, was the main driver of their financial behaviors. Which I think makes sense, actually, when we just think about it intuitively that I can enact healthy financial behaviors if I saw my parents doing that growing up. That’s kind of what’s normal and expected for me. I’ve seen that, I know how to do that. Uh, experiential learning was the main driver of what we call “financial self-efficacy,” which is-
00:13:28,871 [John Lanza]
Mm
00:13:28,912 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… uh, like how confident do I feel that I am capable of managing money well?
00:13:35,392 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Which, uh, is another really important financial outcome ’cause it, um, is associated with lots of other things. Uh, and so then, behaviors and self-efficacy are both important for wellbeing. So, it was kinda cool to see the unique way that modeling, uh, impacted wellbeing, the unique way that experiential learning, hands-on experiences, impacted wellbeing. And interestingly, in the research we’ve done so far, once we account for modeling and experiential learning, the discussion, the lecturing piece wasn’t actually driving the outcomes. So, not to say that it’s not important to talk to kids about money, but from what we’ve seen so far, it would suggest that definitely just talking, you know, telling kids what to do is not gonna be the most effective approach. You actually have to be a good example yourself and give them opportunities to practice what you’re telling them to do. Um, and I think those conversations with kids can facilitate, um, and kind of, you know, amplify the effect of modeling as you kind of talk to them about your own behaviors and, uh, the experiential learning as you’re talking to them, helping them process the, uh, the experiences that they’re having. So, so I hope parents see discussion less as the primary way that kids are learning about money and more as a facilitator of the more important things that are happening, which is them learning from you and them learning for themselves.
00:15:08,011 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so let me understand… I wanna make sure that I’m, uh, fully understanding this. So, you’re saying the modeling is what is driving later behavior? So, the habits-
00:15:20,751 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes
00:15:20,771 [John Lanza]
… okay.
00:15:21,431 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah.
00:15:21,451 [John Lanza]
And then the experience is what’s driving the confidence. So they get the-
00:15:25,531 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:15:25,651 [John Lanza]
… they have the, they ha- they develop these habits and they feel confident-
00:15:29,091 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:15:29,111 [John Lanza]
… that they know what the heck they’re doing when it comes to Money Smarts. Is that right?
00:15:33,011 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah. Exactly.
00:15:34,491 [John Lanza]
Okay. I have to ask you this question because it’s, it, this is such a tough question because,
00:15:41,611 [John Lanza]
you know, there are now, um, there’s been a lot of, uh, hullabaloo around these increases, and they sound on their fa- it sounds like it’s great, right? S- more states are now requiring students-
00:15:56,391 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:15:56,491 [John Lanza]
… to take a financial literacy course before graduating. I think it’s up to 35, right?
00:16:02,091 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:16:03,211 [John Lanza]
And certainly that’s an important step, but my concern is always that we are relying too much on that being a key to financial literacy. And every time I go back to your research, I tend to think, “Well, I don’t know that anything…” Like, I, I don’t know what kids are getting out of this. Now, of course, there’s the-
00:16:28,491 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:16:28,591 [John Lanza]
… there’s the obvious point, which is kids who have either poor modeling at home, or-
00:16:34,071 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:16:34,091 [John Lanza]
… you know, do not have modeling at home, this is hugely important for them. So that, that-
00:16:39,331 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:16:39,511 [John Lanza]
… there, there’s no doubt that it is important for the, for, for us to have, um, financial literacy in the schools. But I’m just curious to know what you make of this increase and how excited we should be as a nation that we’re making these strides, and, um, you know, what, what do you, do you know anything about the power of the, kind of the classroom to make a difference in financial literacy? Just curious.
00:17:05,931 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah. I, um, have seen different research kind of suggesting that, like, between, you know, asking research participants, like, “Did you have a financial literacy course in high school?” And when we asked them, like, you know, “Did your parents, uh, you know, make an effort to teach you about money?” That the parent variable matters way more. So, um-
00:17:33,591 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:17:34,091 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
But I think you articulated really well, in my opinion, why financial literacy courses are so important is because, you know, the state cannot control how, what kind of socialization people are getting at home. And so, I think you’re right that those education courses are going to be especially important for people who are not getting very much of this at home. But, um, but yeah. The, from what I’ve seen so far, they’re just not… as important, as effective as it done really well at home, which, um, I think for, you know, several reasons. Um, at home, that’s… We’re talking 18 years instead of a-
00:18:17,277 [John Lanza]
Huh
00:18:17,337 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… four-month course. Um, and at home, parents are able to give kids real world experience. They’re able to actually go help them set up a savings account or give them an allowance or, you know, all these different ways of actually giving kids meaningful experience instead of, you know, in a classroom, it’s probably primarily lecture based, which again, is not enough on its own. So, um, I think there, uh, are,
00:18:46,057 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
you know, all, any financial education is good, but I think there are better ways to do it in the classroom. I think as much as, um, teachers can connect with parents and encourage, you know, activities at home that would go beyond the semester to happen, that will help them be more effective. Um, the more that teachers can go beyond lecturing to actually having assignments related to hands-on experience with money, um, even if it’s, you know, simulation based and not real money. Um, if they can bring in, you know, some form of modeling, even if it’s not, you know, people’s actual parents, like, just somehow can we get beyond lecturing in the classroom and how can we get it to go beyond a four-month experience that then drops off their, you know, psychic plane after that?
00:19:38,137 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:19:38,857 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, and maybe part of that too, is, is not only trying to go beyond the course, but can we start earlier too? Can in, you know, in math classes from elementary school forward, can finances be more a part of that so that it’s not just a one semester effort, it’s more of like throughout their education it’s, it’s seen as an important aspect. But yeah, it,
00:20:04,337 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
it is encouraging to see states recognizing that, “Oh, this like, this actually is something important that kids should be having,” but I see it as like kind of the bare minimum finally happening and lots of improvement still to go.
00:20:18,437 [John Lanza]
I am so glad you brought up the, uh, use of examples in the classroom materials because there was a great article that I just read. It just, it was one of those like so obvious moments for me. Um, I think it was in the New York Times. We’ll post this article if you wanna read it.
00:20:35,817 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:20:36,277 [John Lanza]
But they were making the case that, you know, you have all these exercises that kids do from gr- [laughs] from kindergarten through high school in math, for example.
00:20:46,617 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:20:46,677 [John Lanza]
Uh, you know, word problems. Why not make a whole ton of them? Why not make them as practical as possible? You know, instead of, you know, two trains going towards each other, instead of talking about things that are theoretical, really talk about things that are practical in terms of, you know, calculating interest or, so you can start to understand how compound interest works or, you know, understand… Or making your problems related to credit cards and interest rates on credit cards or whatever it is.
00:21:15,057 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:21:15,077 [John Lanza]
Making all, as many of the examples practical as possible is exactly the type of thing that you’re talking about. So, then, then you have this kind of lifespan familiarity with money-
00:21:25,957 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:21:26,037 [John Lanza]
… it will probably open up more conversations.
00:21:28,997 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah, totally. I, I actually feel like I’ve seen like on social media that word problems we had from growing up are like kind of like a l- a joke now, used in memes and stuff-
00:21:38,757 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:21:38,777 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… of like, yeah, just so outrageous that like, you know, John had 50 cats or, you know, just like, and it’s like, yeah, why can’t we say John had $50? You know, like, so I, I love that.
00:21:50,617 [John Lanza]
Right. Right.
00:21:50,637 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
I hadn’t seen that, but I love that idea. Yeah.
00:21:53,117 [John Lanza]
We touched on this a tiny bit in our la- last conversation with regard to modeling, ’cause you can have good modeling, you can have bad modeling, right? And you-
00:22:01,257 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:22:01,617 [John Lanza]
… in our conversation, we were talking about the fact that some kids will see the bad modeling and then develop good habits to avoid the bad modeling, right? And then, you know-
00:22:11,497 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:22:11,517 [John Lanza]
… and then there’s gonna be the con- the counter to that, which is, you know, they’re gonna see some good habits and they may rebel and have, develop, uh, you know, potentially poor habits.
00:22:19,977 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:22:19,997 [John Lanza]
Obviously, your research shows that on average that’s, that’s not so, that’s not what’s happening. But what I would li-
00:22:26,557 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:22:26,577 [John Lanza]
… what I’m wondering is, do you have any thoughts on the, the problems with say, poor modeling? Uh, or do you have-
00:22:34,577 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:22:34,697 [John Lanza]
… any good research on poor modeling?
00:22:36,897 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
I’m so glad you brought this up because, so this paper isn’t even quite published yet. It’s almost basically, um, accepted at the Journal of Financial Counseling and Planning. Watch it like now not be. [laughs] No, it like pretty much has been.
00:22:51,577 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:22:52,057 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, so it should be published soon, probably later this year. But, um, it’s exactly kind of what you were talking about, but we finally have like-
00:23:01,017 [John Lanza]
Hmm
00:23:01,037 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… quantitative evidence for it. So, we looked at how, like, participants’ modeling, whether it was good or bad growing up, and then they’re, they’re emerging adults now. Their current behaviors. Are they responsible money managers or bad money managers? And so yeah, for the first time we actually said like, “Hey, is this phenomenon that we seemed to be seeing in the interviews real?” And what, what happens when that… So yeah, we found, uh, kind of these different groups. There were groups that we actually called them the intergenerational financial flourishers who like, their parents were good with money, good models, and they are now good with money themselves. And then there were the, you know, financial flounders who their parents were bad with money, they are now too. That’s kind of that classic like, “Yeah, you didn’t have a good example and so now you’re, you know, you’re screwed,” kind of thing.
00:23:58,697 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:23:58,897 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um-
00:23:59,237 [John Lanza]
That’s
00:23:59,857 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:23:59,857 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… then there were some who, uh, we called them socialization squanderers who they received good modeling, but they’re now not doing, you know, good-… Well with their behaviors. But then the most interesting group to me, the fourth group, the Financial Phoenixes, we called.
00:24:17,467 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:24:17,487 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
There were people who had received negative modeling growing up and were now good money managers themselves. And I really am interested in this group because it’s, it’s exactly what we would… It’s kind of like the story of hope for, you know, you can’t control what your parents did growing up. And so for people who didn’t have great examples of, of healthy financial management, like is it, you know, uh, is there hope for you?
00:24:45,048 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:24:45,068 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
And so, we found that… We looked at several outcomes. Financial independence, financial satisfaction, financial distress. And across the outcomes, the best group of all were the Intergenerational Financial Flourishers. So, it really is ideal for people to have good modeling. Um, that does tend to give them a leg up.
00:25:11,627 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:25:11,647 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
But the second most well-off group, and they were really close, were those Financial Phoenixes. So, even people-
00:25:18,647 [John Lanza]
Wow
00:25:18,747 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… who had received negative modeling, but were intentionally choosing to be better themselves. And it’s somehow, you know, um, maybe they had taken a financial education class in college, or, um, had listened to your podcast, or, you know, somehow had, had kind of educated themselves and made up for the lack that they received. Um, that they were actually doing really well on average financially. And so, then the, obviously the people who weren’t doing well with their financial outcomes were the people who, regardless of their modeling growing up, um, were reporting not so great behavior. So, kind of my takeaway is like, yes, modeling really does matter growing up. But for those who receive not so great modeling, intentionally educating yourself, intentionally choosing to form healthy habits yourself, you’ll, you’ll be just fine. So.
00:26:16,127 [John Lanza]
That’s really wonderful information. So, the, these Financial Phoenixes. How, uh, how did you identify that they were making choices?
00:26:27,187 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Good question.
00:26:28,067 [John Lanza]
How did they do that?
00:26:28,087 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
So, initially, um, we had each participant self-select themselves into one of those four groups. So, the four groups being like, parents were good with money, I’m good with money. Parents were good with money, I’m bad with money. Parents were bad with money, I’m good with money. Parents were bad with money, I’m bad with money. So, they just self-selected into one of those four. But we wanted to make sure that those were, um, like accurate categorizations. And so, we actually compared participants’ responses in, on that question to, um, whether that aligned with the financial modeling scale, uh, results that we had from them. And, uh, we had a financial behaviors scale from them. And it was. People who said that they had received good modeling were also scoring high on the financial modeling scale. People who said that they were good money managers were scoring highly on the financial behavior scale. So-
00:27:23,707 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:27:23,747 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
That’s how we kinda did it.
00:27:25,407 [John Lanza]
Interesting. Okay. So, one thing we haven’t talked too much about is kind of the, uh, the income part of the equa-… Like, we talked a lot before about-
00:27:34,987 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:27:35,007 [John Lanza]
… uh, in our previous conversation, we talked about allowance. And I’ve had a lot of conversations with, uh, entrepreneurs, for example, who come on the podcast and talk about how they’re raising their kids. And they definitely tend to be the ones who are not at all into the idea of giving their kids an allowance, right? Um, and I think-
00:27:53,347 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:27:53,367 [John Lanza]
… in some cases they, they may be waiting a little too long, um, for those kids to actually kind of start the process. Um-
00:28:02,547 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:28:02,867 [John Lanza]
But in some cases, um, they g- they do get it started. But what, but, but this income part of the allowance equation is important because at some point, you do need to transition from an allowance to the kids, you know, just making their own money.
00:28:18,487 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:28:18,627 [John Lanza]
And, um, and it, there are different ways that that happens. I just, uh, interviewed, um, Joe Saul-Sehy, -Sehy, and he said, um, that his allowance just kind of ended up disappearing because his kids-
00:28:30,947 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm
00:28:30,967 [John Lanza]
… got jobs. And he’s not-
00:28:32,207 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:28:32,247 [John Lanza]
… the first person that has said that. I think David Owen came on the podcast and said the same type of thing. So-
00:28:37,567 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:28:37,827 [John Lanza]
… um, what do you think about the kind of income part of the, you know, allowance equation? Um-
00:28:46,227 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:28:46,607 [John Lanza]
Is that something you’ve looked at, thought about?
00:28:49,747 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah. I think how I see it is that’s like the main benefit from my point of view of an allowance, is it acts like steady income. The purpose of which is for kids to start forming money management habits. Um-
00:29:06,427 [John Lanza]
Hmm
00:29:06,527 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… I think I really like the idea of kids also learning the connection between work and income though. And you know-
00:29:16,467 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Blah, blah, blah
00:29:16,687 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… that kind of happening as kids are probably in their, you know, maybe teenage years. And I think a way for that kind of to bridge the gap there, and why maybe it happens so naturally is, I’m also a fan of giving kids more f- responsibility for paying for more of their own things as they get older. Um, and so if your teenagers know they have to pay for their own gas, or to go on choir tour, or whatever it is, their allowance isn’t gonna cover that. And so, that will motivate them to get a job, which will then kind of make the smaller money that they were making as an allowance kind of less significant for them. And it might just fade away. But, you know, when kids are, are littler, smaller, you know, $5 is plenty to cover their needs, and is enough for them to start building basic habits around budgeting and saving, and, and giving, and things like that. So, so I think, um, both can play, uh, both allowance and, you know, getting a job, or entrepreneurial, uh, pursuits can both play important roles, uh, in different ways.
00:30:25,167 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Um, that makes sense. So-So, we’ve been talking about how discussions, um, are not a, necessarily a big driver. Discussions or lectures. Right?
00:30:39,045 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:30:39,206 [John Lanza]
Um, have you separated the, separated that out from, say, open conversations? And perhaps open conversations, really… ‘Cause I… What I don’t want people to come away with is the ide- idea that discussions are not the problem, ’cause I, I know that’s not what you’re saying.
00:30:55,405 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Right. Yeah.
00:30:55,425 [John Lanza]
And I was thinking, would we, would we put open conversations in, say, the modeling bucket? Um, and have you been ab- able to identify kind of practical z- examples of the types of conversations or discussions that might be most effective for parents?
00:31:12,185 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah. We have seen, um,… I do kind of lump into, we call it parent/child financial discussion, both like more kind of teaching/lecturing but also conversations and open dialogue and kids asking questions. So it is, it is… I see it as actually like a really good thing, unless it is just kind of straight lecture, and then that’s going to be less effective. But, um, so I c-… And there’s alot of overlap between these three methods. They’re highly correlated with each other statistically. And I think it’s because they, especially the more helpful types of discussion that’s more of a dialogue, and, um, are used kinda like, you know, we were talking about, are used with modeling and are used with experiential learning. And so, yes, I definitely… Talking about money is, is so good, but I think it’s mostly good because it facilitates, uh, you know, really having those other ex- the experiences and the modeling kind of click in their minds and be instilled. Um, whereas, it’s more just talking by itself isn’t enough, is more of, is what I hope people take away. So yes, talk about money. Have open conversations, but use them as a way to t- teach your kids about what you’re doing and as a way to guide them through their own hands-on experiences, um, instead of having it be more of a lecture.
00:32:45,465 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:32:46,825 [John Lanza]
Okay. So, we talked about the financial phoenixes who rise because… And, uh, and that their, their parents weren’t necessarily good models.
00:32:54,945 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:32:54,985 [John Lanza]
They turn out to be pretty good themselves.
00:32:58,605 [John Lanza]
One of the most common issues, though, are parents… And, you know, I, I, I would put myself in this bucket. You know, as when I first got, uh, into this, I wa- I, I had a lot of financial baggage, we’ll put it that way, in terms of just-
00:33:12,225 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:33:12,265 [John Lanza]
… dumb decisions in the past. And s- and good decisions. But I was worried about my ability to talk to my kids about, uh, money smarts.
00:33:21,905 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:33:21,925 [John Lanza]
And I’ve discovered through this process that that’s really, that is the process. I just wanted to know if you have any advice or if the research has uncovered any ideas about how parents can do a better job of talking to their kids about things that might be a little bit scary for them.
00:33:39,185 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm. Yeah. I think the research is still learning about that, honestly. Um-
00:33:45,485 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:33:45,585 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… my own kind of, I, I guess, opinion, based on, you know, everything else we see in the research, is that the self-efficacy piece might be important. Like, if parents don’t feel
00:34:00,485 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
like they know enough about money or are capable with money, they’re probably gonna be more hesitant to see themselves as, you know, financial educators or to wanna try to talk to their kids about it.
00:34:13,845 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:34:13,945 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, so, I mean, we know things that contribute to financial self-efficacy are, you know… Obviously, you can’t control parents, but seeking more financial education for yourself. Um, or, you know, self-efficacy is tied to behavior, so, you know, just working on your, your own financial wellbeing. Hopefully, you’ll, you’ll start believing that, that actually, “No, I’m, I’m pretty good at this. I can do this.”
00:34:41,325 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:34:41,885 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, and, and we do know from research that financial self-efficacy matters for couples, um, that couples with high financial self-efficacy tend to have better financial communication with each other. And so, I would guess that that might be true. Um, this is a fun potential future research question-
00:34:59,705 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Yeah
00:35:00,225 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… that, that maybe parents’ financial self-efficacy would make them more likely to, to wanna talk to their kids about money, too. I just think, in general, kind of humans, when we don’t… When we feel either like shame around a topic or just don’t feel confident, um, in a topic, we tend to just kind of avoid it, uh-
00:35:20,245 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:35:20,325 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… which isn’t helpful for us or for our kids. So, yeah.
00:35:24,665 [John Lanza]
Yeah. I mean, it’s… The way we always frame it here is, uh, you know, one, I come at it from… I, I understand where people are coming from in when you approach this topic, and it can be a little bit scary-
00:35:37,985 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-Hmm
00:35:38,085 [John Lanza]
… but you just have to kind of embrace that-
00:35:40,565 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:35:40,745 [John Lanza]
… kind of… I, I… It sounds cliché to say, “Feel the fear,” but you re- you have to kind of lean-
00:35:45,685 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:35:45,705 [John Lanza]
… into what’s difficult, and-
00:35:48,145 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:35:48,225 [John Lanza]
… go on the journey with your kids together. And realize-
00:35:52,125 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes
00:35:52,145 [John Lanza]
… that some of those mistakes that you made can actually be… They’re not, they’re not… They’re, they’re actually not bugs in the system-
00:35:59,125 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:35:59,145 [John Lanza]
… you’re building with your kids. They’re really kind of features that you can-
00:36:02,005 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes
00:36:02,125 [John Lanza]
… share with them. So then, when they make mistakes, you say, “Listen. That’s… I made mistakes. Now you’re making mistakes.”
00:36:07,645 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah.
00:36:07,825 [John Lanza]
“That’s what we learn from,” right? Does that make sense?
00:36:09,825 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes. And, um, in our qualitative interviews, this was kind of a theme that came out was, um, some of the helpful conversations, discussions that people remembered having with their parents growing up were about their parents’ financial mistakes. So, um-
00:36:26,225 [John Lanza]
Hmm
00:36:26,245 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… so yeah. I would encourage parents to not… You know, you don’t have to pretend like you’re a perfect money manager or know everything about money. Kids can learn from your good, uh, experiences, but they can also…… learn from your not so good experiences. So I, yeah, I, I really love that idea of just being humble enough to kind of be open and engaged, and you’ll both benefit from, and learn from the process.
00:36:50,039 [John Lanza]
Yeah, I think th- I think the other big plus there is that, so much of the way that money… I mean, this has changed a lot since, uh, I would say Morgan Housel and Psychology of Money. His book has done a lot in this area. But, eh, so much of money has been about kind of irrational decisions and it’s now, we’re… I think it’s pretty obvious to people then [laughs] we d- we don’t deal with money very rationally.
00:37:13,599 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah.
00:37:13,619 [John Lanza]
But still, I think the instruction is very rational ba- uh, it’s still rational-
00:37:19,079 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:37:19,360 [John Lanza]
… based, uh, instruction. I think that’s one of the big problems, because that’s not how-
00:37:24,679 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:37:24,699 [John Lanza]
… people come at money. Like, they can come at… Certainly if they’re doing-
00:37:27,660 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:37:27,680 [John Lanza]
… a word problem, or if they’re doing exercise-
00:37:29,839 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:37:29,979 [John Lanza]
… then yes. Then they’re gonna have to deal with it. If it’s math, they’re gonna have to deal with it rationally. But that’s not-
00:37:35,379 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:37:35,399 [John Lanza]
… really what money is all about, because money is about
00:37:39,139 [John Lanza]
understanding that you’ve, you may have made a, what seems like a good decision to invest some money in the stock market, and then everything tanks in a period of, you know, a month or a few days. And all you have to do is most likely hold out. Now again, this is not financial advice, but if you just look at it long term, y- if you can survive these-
00:37:59,999 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:38:00,579 [John Lanza]
… these drops, you’re gonna be okay. But that’s really where the rubber hits the road, is your brain is go- your brain is thinking, “I need to get the heck outta here.” [laughs]
00:38:10,099 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm.
00:38:10,599 [John Lanza]
And
00:38:11,999 [John Lanza]
you’re a- and that, because that’s just a na- We, we are just attuned to fear. Like, that’s, that’s just, that’s our, our paleolithic brains are going, “Run away! Grab my money and get the heck outta here.” Rather than-
00:38:24,079 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:38:24,179 [John Lanza]
… “Oh, just think long term, it’s all gonna be fine.”
00:38:26,699 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah, that just ki- reminded me of, um, there’s this new idea that’s, uh, kind of hitting its way to the research world. It was started by financial therapists who, um, financial therapists, it’s like a branch of marriage and family therapy, and so they’re trained in, you know, that couple, couple therapy dynamics, um, and then like kind of the psychology of money. And, um, and like financial planning type of thing. So, they’re kind of trying to help people financially, individually, and on couples. Anyway, so financial therapists were, um, kind of put this term called money attitudes. No, what do we call it? Money scripts. Money scripts-
00:39:12,659 [John Lanza]
Oh
00:39:12,679 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… which really are money attitudes. And so financial therapists kind of identified these common scripts or orientations towards money that they saw their clients having. And so we’re now starting to use it in research to look, um, at like couple outcomes of, you know, different, uh, you know, duos’ money scripts, which… Anyways, it’s fun, but I would love to, in the near future, also bring it into the financial socialization research to-
00:39:41,199 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:39:41,239 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, my guess is that financial attitudes and, you know, these money scripts are very intergenerational [laughs] in that, um, you know, not only just knowledge about money or habits, but even people’s general orientation towards money, the way they view money, their feelings about money, I would guess, um, definitely are shaped by their parents and then, and then impact them. And so, so therapists are already aware of this and kind of intervening with their clients, but I think it’d be cool to see educators helping, um, you know, people in these financial education courses. You know, we, we don’t just need to teach people about compound interest, although of course we do, but also, you know, how are… What’s kind of your, your orientation towards money? Do you see money as a source of status or as a source of stability or as a source of shame? You know, these kind of-
00:40:38,439 [John Lanza]
Mm
00:40:38,639 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… um, things that will help people reflect more on, on their financial wellbeing and, and what they can do differently, and any, any kind of intergenerational healing that needs to take place.
00:40:53,599 [John Lanza]
Nice. I, we… I’ve interviewed Brad Klontz, who I’m sure you are familiar with, ’cause he’s-
00:40:57,999 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Oh, he is-
00:40:58,779 [John Lanza]
… he worked with the money-
00:40:59,219 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… the money scripts guy. Yeah.
00:40:59,979 [John Lanza]
The money scripts guy, right. Exactly.
00:41:01,879 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah.
00:41:01,899 [John Lanza]
And then, uh, do you know Megan McCoy? Because she’s-
00:41:04,459 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes
00:41:04,679 [John Lanza]
… uh, financial-
00:41:05,399 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
I love Megan. [laughs]
00:41:06,859 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:41:06,939 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes, she’s-
00:41:07,539 [John Lanza]
[laughs] I figured.
00:41:08,219 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… a… Yeah, she’s big in financial therapy as well. Those are two heavy hitters. Yeah, yeah.
00:41:12,679 [John Lanza]
I think she was the first fin- uh, first like accredited financial therapist. I’m not sure if I’m using the right term, but, uh-
00:41:17,839 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Oh, that’s awesome. I believe it. Yeah.
00:41:19,659 [John Lanza]
Yeah. Um, so that’s great. I feel like, uh, what we need to do is a, a panel on this, because I, I do feel like that, that part of it is so important. And it’s, it’s not that, um, anybody who’s developing these curricula doesn’t know. Everybody knows this now, you know? That it’s-
00:41:33,759 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:41:33,899 [John Lanza]
… it’s how do you… Ho- That seems like that is a tremendously difficult challenge for someone to teach.
00:41:42,079 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Right.
00:41:42,099 [John Lanza]
You know, it’s very… It’s much easier to teach rationally. Much less, much, much more difficult, I think, to kind of teach on a more psychological level because you just, there, there’s just no way to do that that is gonna be, that’s gonna necessarily scale, I would think. You know, because everybody’s gonna have all these different types of reactions to all the different information that’s coming at them.
00:42:03,199 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes.
00:42:03,479 [John Lanza]
Right? Yeah.
00:42:04,499 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah, pedagogical creativity, definitely. We have to get beyond just-
00:42:08,619 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:42:08,799 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… yeah, yep, or the usual way of teaching finance. Yeah.
00:42:12,699 [John Lanza]
Yeah. All right, well, Ashley, I wanna just ask, uh, before we get into… I have a few quick general questions not about your research that I’m just curious about, and then we’re gonna do a, a slightly revised version of the fast and fun round, ’cause you’ve already answered some of those questions. Um, what is next? What do you most… I mean, we’ve already identified, uh, three or four different research topics that you’re either doing [laughs] or you’re thinking about doing.
00:42:36,239 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah.
00:42:36,259 [John Lanza]
What are you gonna… What, what is next up in your research? What are you most excited about inyour research?
00:42:42,581 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
[laughs] Yeah, I have kind of talked about several of my current projects. I- I’ll, I’m excited to continue doing financial socialization work. A big part of where I’m headed with that is a lot of the research has been done on emerging adults, thinking back, uh, to their, you know, experience growing up. And part of that’s ’cause it’s easier to get approval to do research on, uh, adults instead of minors.
00:43:08,502 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:43:08,842 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um-
00:43:09,201 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:43:10,262 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
And a lot of the research honestly used college students because they’re easy access for-
00:43:15,462 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:43:16,161 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… for academics. But, so we-
00:43:17,821 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:43:17,862 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… have this, um, I have a great data set I now have access to, um, on adolescents and their parents.
00:43:25,641 [John Lanza]
Mm.
00:43:25,661 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
So we have data on-
00:43:26,441 [John Lanza]
Nice
00:43:26,522 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… adolescents and, uh, and one, sometimes two of their parents. So, so I’m excited to kind of dig more into socialization as it’s happening instead of, instead of like thinking back on it, um, and kind of seeing it progress throughout adolescence and how any of these, you know, dynamics, associations change. So that’s, that’s some of my f- uh, upcoming socialization work. I, I kind of talked about some money scripts is, is some of the upcoming couple stuff I’m doing.
00:43:54,581 [John Lanza]
I would imagine it’s even tougher with school age, but there’s, there’s,
00:43:58,901 [John Lanza]
that would be, it would be wonderful to really find out what’s going on if with-
00:44:05,201 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:44:05,381 [John Lanza]
… with, you know, what kids are learning. ‘Cause we, you know, we are constantly, there, there is research that talks about the fact that a lot of these, you know, there’s that research that came out of, um, I think outta the UK, that is-
00:44:18,801 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:44:18,861 [John Lanza]
… constantly quoted that people’s, you know, money habits are established by age seven, which-
00:44:23,361 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Hm
00:44:23,521 [John Lanza]
… obviously is ridiculous. Um-
00:44:25,681 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah, I think established-
00:44:26,881 [John Lanza]
Uh- [laughs]
00:44:26,901 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… is the wrong word there.
00:44:28,381 [John Lanza]
Right. [laughs]
00:44:28,601 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Definitely have begun to form, I would more support, but-
00:44:31,421 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:44:31,841 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
[laughs]
00:44:33,021 [John Lanza]
Yeah. And I, and I think it’s, it, it gets used, uh, uh, and I’ve probably been guilty of s- of using it myself, uh, in the past. But it, it is, right, it’s, it’s they’re beginning to form and it’s really-
00:44:43,981 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:44:44,081 [John Lanza]
… for people to understand, one-
00:44:46,521 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:44:46,681 [John Lanza]
… you know, the importance of starting early, but you know, what matters early is one of the key things. And I think your, your-
00:44:52,901 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:44:53,101 [John Lanza]
… research points to the most obvious thing, which is that get money in their hands as soon-
00:44:57,881 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:44:58,021 [John Lanza]
… as possible, so the, and, and money that kind of is their own, even if they haven’t necessarily earned it-
00:45:03,281 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yes
00:45:03,321 [John Lanza]
… it is, right, their money, right? Is it, would, would you agree that that’s-
00:45:07,061 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:45:07,081 [John Lanza]
… probably, uh, from your research for young kids, that’s probably the-
00:45:10,061 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:45:10,261 [John Lanza]
… number one thing? Or is there something else?
00:45:12,061 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
No, I would totally agree with that. I mean, for, yeah, preschool age/elementary school age, it’s, they’re not, they’re not cognitively ready or caring, uh, to learn high level financial concepts. So yeah, I see it as having, you know, starting basic habits forming that they’re, they’re already exactly managing their own money that they feel a sense of control over. You know, there’s basic budgeting, saving, you know, lots of very basic money management habits can start forming. That confidence can already be, um, start building with that familiarity. And I would maybe also add, although like this is not even research-based, but just I, I guess that it’s also important for those attitudes to already start forming. So if parents can have money management be like a fun, exciting thing that kids care about, they feel like is relevant for them, um, I think that can start early too and can make future efforts more successful, uh, as well.
00:46:22,961 [John Lanza]
Very nice. So in our last conversation-
00:46:25,521 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:46:25,541 [John Lanza]
… you talked a lot about your parents and they were, they seemed to be very positive, uh, positive influence-
00:46:30,721 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:46:30,821 [John Lanza]
… and positive, uh, money influence too. Uh, I was curious to know, like, what is your earliest memory of your parents talking to you about money?
00:46:38,781 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
That is a good question. They did do it. I mean, not perfect, but they, they did do a, a good job in several ways with money. Well, yeah, the earliest, honestly, of probably me even being like aware of money was, um, was my parents saying no to things [laughs] or, and somehow like-
00:46:57,741 [John Lanza]
Mm
00:46:57,761 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… communicating that like, we couldn’t have everything we wanted. So saying like, “No,” like, “We, you know, we can’t go out to eat that often. We have to eat at home.” Or I’d ask for something out, you know, and about, and they would say no. So that was-
00:47:11,461 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm.
00:47:11,481 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… honestly probably the first thing I learned about money is that it’s finite, which is a-
00:47:15,781 [John Lanza]
Mm
00:47:15,821 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… really important thing. I’m glad that my parents didn’t give us everything we wanted. Um, so yeah, that was probably the first thing is just before I even really understood, you know, how to manage it well, just understanding that it had to be managed because there was only so much of it.
00:47:34,021 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
And maybe, let’s see, the most profound thing, um, my parents did try to really teach us the work smarter, not harder, which I think in some ways was, um, a privilege of being in like upper middle class that, you know, that we could choose to, you know, in some cases-
00:47:55,241 [John Lanza]
Mm-hmm
00:47:55,281 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… just work smarter, not harder, whereas some people just work really, really hard. But things like, um, where I just had a, you know, a part-time job in high school, but like their, they tried to really instill in us
00:48:09,981 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
to get the kind of grades so that we could earn scholarships. So kind of that like future orientation, kind of like setting yourself up, making investments in your, in your current self to set yourself up financially later. Um, that, that’s been really helpful and I feel like has kind of shaped my orientation of like, yeah, I just kind of got used to thinking of, “Okay, what do I do now to set myself up for later?” It might not always be the most obvious thing, or it might be, you know, involve delayed gratification, but kind of j- That kind of mindset, um, that again, I feel like was a, a privilege. I didn’t have to work that much in high school ’cause my parents could pay for most of my things. But, but yeah, kind of, kind of helped me think through strategically, um, how to set myself up for the best long-term financial situation. And then, like now, like made, um, you know, setting aside a good chunk of my
00:49:07,948 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
income in my 20s towards retirement, which feels so far away. But kind of just getting comfortable setting myself up for the future was, was a really-
00:49:17,347 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:49:17,367 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… I, I appreciate that.
00:49:19,327 [John Lanza]
Yeah. That’s great. That, uh, that is a nod to the importance of the open money conversation. So I’m glad you brought that up.
00:49:27,487 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:49:27,907 [John Lanza]
Um, it does make me think, ’cause I, you know, I, I, I think we have similar backgrounds monetarily, and it does make me think that, uh, you just have to be grateful that you’re not… I, I talked to, uh, researcher Chuck Kalish, uh, a number of episodes ago, and he was just talking about the difficulty of toxic stress, right?
00:49:46,427 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:49:46,507 [John Lanza]
That happens. And, and how problematic that can be, um, for people that are of, you know, uh, are having a difficult time, do not have the money to kind of, uh, pay for basic necessities, and, what that effect can have on kids.
00:50:03,467 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah.
00:50:03,587 [John Lanza]
Um, and, and again, I think that’s, that’s, that’s one of those things that, uh, that it’s, it’s one of the reasons that we definitely need to have, um, something in the schools to, uh, to encourage, um, financial, uh, literacy. So that people get the opportunity to become aware that there is a, a way out, uh-
00:50:24,167 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:50:24,247 [John Lanza]
… and a way to kind of, uh, to, uh, escape from the toxic stress of the, the day-to-day life, so.
00:50:30,567 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:33,687 [John Lanza]
All right. So the fast and fun round questions. I would like to ask you, uh, a modified version of these. So one is, what, uh does the term mo- I usually ask what does the term money empowered mean to you? Um, and I wanted to just know if you, uh, if you have any additional thoughts on what money empowered does mean to you?
00:50:53,587 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Hm.
00:50:55,567 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
To me, that means… It’s honestly kind of related to, like the wellbeing and the self-efficacy that we talked about, where like, I feel capable in myself and like, in my situation, that like, I can reach my goals. That I, um, you know, can act intentionally towards, you know, the type of situation, um, that, that I want. So, so yeah. Kind of that, that, I guess a combination of
00:51:27,907 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
circumstances. You know, lack of [laughs] toxic stress, like an enough-
00:51:31,487 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:51:31,687 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… wellbeing in my circumstances, in my life, paired with, um, my own, you know, knowledge and, and confidence that, that yeah, I can, I can actually achieve what I’m hoping for.
00:51:43,927 [John Lanza]
Very nice. A research informed money empowered definition.
00:51:49,127 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
[laughs] Yeah.
00:51:50,187 [John Lanza]
All right. So, uh, if you could transmit a message that everyone would see, sky-written or on a billboard, um, what would it say? Now, last time-
00:51:58,327 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Hmm
00:51:58,387 [John Lanza]
… you said, uh, “Live intentionally. Be kind.” So you can go with that. Do you wanna add anything to that billboard?
00:52:05,347 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, so I purposefully did not listen to my last podcast before-
00:52:09,207 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:52:09,287 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Like, obviously I’ve heard it before, but right before coming on here, ’cause I was like, “I want a fresh slate.” Like, “I don’t wanna be like remembering what I said last time.”
00:52:16,547 [John Lanza]
Like, “I just ruined it.” [laughs]
00:52:17,547 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
And so… No, no, I’m just… I actually, like you sent me this list of questions. And so that’s so funny, when I was thinking about what my answer would be to that, that’s really close to what I thought of. [laughs] So I guess I haven’t changed that much in the last five years, so maybe I’ll just stick with that. Yeah.
00:52:35,547 [John Lanza]
Well, what was, what was your answer gonna be?
00:52:37,847 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah. I honestly thought about like, “Be intentional, be kind.” Um, like, “You matter.” You know, “Jesus loves you.”
00:52:45,707 [John Lanza]
Nice.
00:52:45,747 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Like, just kind of-
00:52:46,587 [John Lanza]
Yeah.
00:52:46,867 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
I feel like before people can, um,
00:52:51,407 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
like do, like do well, act well, they first need to like,
00:52:57,447 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
kind of have this like belief in themselves and their own empowerment. So, so yeah.
00:53:02,227 [John Lanza]
Hm.
00:53:02,247 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Kind of like a, a pick me up for them. Yeah.
00:53:05,067 [John Lanza]
Yeah, that’s a, that does seem to be a big theme here, this, the intentionality, the self-efficacy. It’s, uh, that’s why I love this concept of the Financial Phoenix. So-
00:53:14,107 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah
00:53:14,247 [John Lanza]
… I mean, have you found people that have come from all different, um, types of approaches-
00:53:18,887 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Mm-hmm
00:53:19,007 [John Lanza]
… different types of modeling? That’s pretty empowering.
00:53:21,907 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Yeah, that’s kind of… I try to have it be kind of my orientation towards all my like, family studies and human development thinking is like,
00:53:29,627 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
like we need to recognize the real struggles and barriers that people experience that have real impacts on them-
00:53:35,547 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:53:35,567 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… while also focusing on everything that is in their control to help, you know, improve their situation the most that we can. And I feel like-
00:53:44,147 [John Lanza]
Yeah
00:53:44,307 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… kind of hitting both of those at the same time, I’ve, I think is the most hopeful, so.
00:53:50,327 [John Lanza]
Yeah. That makes sense. All right. So what is, uh, the one, uh, parenting or money smarts book… I, I, I have them, but I’m, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna… I won’t prompt you on this one again.
00:54:01,367 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
[laughs]
00:54:01,747 [John Lanza]
Um, or, or any medium.
00:54:04,067 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
I think I
00:54:04,267 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
… [laughs] said.
00:54:04,607 [John Lanza]
[laughs]
00:54:05,067 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
But, uh, can I actually, instead of a book this time, share about a resource that I have, that people may or may not be interested in? So I now-
00:54:15,007 [John Lanza]
That’d be wonderful.
00:54:15,307 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Um, I now have a research website. It’s lebaron-black.com or lebaron-black.byu.edu. Either of those should take you to the same place. And, um, it’s… I started it, uh, because, you know, I, I write these 35 page long convoluted, jargon papers that no one wants to read, including my own [laughs] husband and mother, right? Like, no one wants to read these. But I feel like the information in them is really important. And so, you know, I was thinking through, “How can I-“… you know, communicate this, get this out to people who want to know, but are not gonna read the actual articles. And so, um, I employ a team of research assistants who are really awesome, who, um,
00:55:03,673 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
they will each, like, read really thoroughly a research article, really understand it deeply, ingest it, and they’ll write almost like a blog post. Like, um, just kind of a short, really digestible version of what the research was generally about, what the results were, and how you can apply this in your life. And so, there’s, uh, it’s, uh, there’s a, a place to subscribe, um, to the website, which it’s like, 100% free. I just do this for fun and ’cause I want people to know about the [laughs] research. Um, and you would, if people subscribe, they would just get an email once a month that shows, um, kinda highlights some of the recent posts that my research assistants have written. So, I hope it’s a good way for people to kind of learn about some of the research that’s coming out right now, but in a really,
00:55:57,693 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
uh, applicable way that’s not gonna put them to sleep. So, that’s, that’s my plug.
00:56:02,633 [John Lanza]
It’s a good plug, and, uh, I can concur that it is very useful. It makes it easier to get a sense of all the research that you’ve done in a, in a kind of practical, simple way, without having to go, um, and read every word of every research paper, um, that you’ve written, which is terrific. So-
00:56:22,633 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Thanks
00:56:22,753 [John Lanza]
… thank you for that resource. Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you for that resource, actually.
00:56:26,393 [Ashley LeBaron-Black]
Thanks, John.
00:56:27,173 [John Lanza]
[instrumental music]
00:56:33,193 [John Lanza]
I really appreciate you taking your valuable time to listen to this episode. I hope you found it useful. You can find detailed show notes for this and all past episodes at themoneymammals.com. That’s T-H-E M-O-N-E-Y-M-A-M-M-A-L-S.com. Just click the podcast and blog link at the top of our homepage to discover our entire podcast archive. And if you like my work here, please, please leave a rating, or even better, a review, on whichever service that you use to stream these podcast episodes. You are part of our Money Smart movement, and this podcast plays an important role in that movement. Your rating and review will help other people like us find this material. And lastly, if you’d like three ideas to help you raise money-smart kids delivered directly to your inbox each week, I think you’ll really love my weekly newsletter. Just click on the little purple circle with the chat icon at themoneymammals.com, and select “Get our newsletter.” Of course, please consult with an investment or financial professional before engaging in any decisions that might affect your financial wellbeing. And until next time, don’t forget to enjoy the journey.